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TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#189151: May 15th 2017 at 8:37:18 PM

Simply accepting the status quo and resigning ourselves that change will be incremental and imperceptibly slow is not reflective of how societies have evolved historically, and if the past 30 years are any indication will in fact result in a gradual, halting regression on many fronts. Typically things reach the point of a crisis before changing very rapidly, often for the worse if authorities fail to respond adequately. Now, we shouldn't try to make things worse than they already are because that dramatically increases the likelihood of things becoming worse rather than better when we finally reach a breaking point, but thinking small and simple doesn't pay for the left

Maybe. But there is a pace between glacial change and revolution, and someday I'd like to see the American left master. More importantly though, I'd like to see the US Left as a whole internalize that even if they successfully manage to pull off a revolution, they need to do more than that. They need to put in the upkeep and maintenance afterward (which is all too often thankless work) and keep upgrading their system continuously to fit the needs of the people. I for one would be much happier to see the left not go into a Won the War, Lost the Peace mode where everything they accomplish is slowly chipped away while they can't be bothered to pay attention or keep perspective, until they have no choice but to pull off the whole Back from the Brink thing.

Otherwise, sometime they're going to find they're in a position where they can't pull off that Back from the Brink, and they'll be sitting around wondering how they blew it all. Kind of like we are right now.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#189152: May 15th 2017 at 8:38:11 PM

[up][up] I'm sure you've been on the Internet long enough to know that the only way to kill a argument the other side wants is to not respond at all.

edited 15th May '17 8:38:39 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#189153: May 15th 2017 at 8:38:22 PM

@Mad

The problem isn't that Jacobin is a "Marxist" publication. The problem is that Jacobin is full of shit. We are talking about a publication that gives historians crap when they acknowledge that Josef Stalin was a bad person. A publication that has tried to whitewash the nature of the crimes of Communist governments, and at times, flirted with flat out denying those crimes even happened. A publication that has accused those who acknowledge the full scale of Soviet crimes of being "right wing historians" or even actual Nazi apologists, as opposed to you know, historians dealing with objective reality.

FOX News can quote the New York Times. So can Stormfront. Doesn't mean anyone should be linking to them.

@Caspase

Somehow I doubt you'd be pursuing this line about "deflection" if the bullshit summation another poster had linked to had come from FOX or Stormfront or Breitbart. If anything you'd probably be accusing us all of being ready to ally with the Nazis.

A ragingly biased article does not get a pass because it's footnotes are to real sources.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#189154: May 15th 2017 at 8:41:41 PM

Dear god man do you have to take the bait? Fox could only have made the attempt to bait you into yet another "is Sanders a good guy or should we all hate him?" fight more obvious by using a giant flashing neon sign that said "I wanna fight Caspase and Mad again, let's have another round".

I think the bigger issue there is Fox antagonizing people in the first place (subtly or otherwise), rather than if Cap or Mad respond to him.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#189155: May 15th 2017 at 8:41:59 PM

[up][up][up][up] All societies are doomed in the end, one way or another; when they can't pull themselves back from the brink, they collapse. The Fermi Paradox certainly suggests our time is relatively soon, because there's little to stop an interstellar civilization from lasting until in the heat death of the universe.

@Ambar: If said source actually cited credible sources, I would remark it's a poor place to go looking for sources, but provided the facts being cited were themselves credible and supported whatever position was being asserted with the article as support, I would not dispute said facts.

edited 15th May '17 8:44:04 PM by CaptainCapsase

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#189156: May 15th 2017 at 8:43:40 PM

Let's stop talking science fiction.

Continue writing our story of peace.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#189157: May 15th 2017 at 8:45:36 PM

[up] It's not though; a person born today has perhaps a 20% chance of dying in a human extinction event; that is to say there's approximately a 20% chance the human species is wiped out in the course of the 21st century. Nearly all of that risk is anthropogenic.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#189158: May 15th 2017 at 8:46:40 PM

In funny stuff on the idiotic fringe of the Unicorn Left, I give you this. TYT is fighting itself over the Russia story, and the lunatic "journalist" who wrote the story linked here is railing about how Cenk is joining forces with Rachel Maddow to attack poor, innocent Putin.

Someone previously said horseshoe theory is nonsense, but I don't know—an awful lot of the stuff written by the Unicorn Brigaders—this piece obviously included—would, with one or two small word changes, fit in nicely on Breitbart. There's a reason for that.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#189159: May 15th 2017 at 8:48:26 PM

@Ambar I've never seen evidence of that though.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#189160: May 15th 2017 at 8:48:44 PM

@Ambar: And none of that was related to the topic we were discussing. You're the only one who wants to make a big deal out of it, and a big personal-attack laden deal out of it. It could have been presented better but it was accurate for the topic.

And if I may, I find your attitude annoying and inflammatory whether I agree with your points or not and wish you would find a tone besides "constantly accusatory or derisive".

edited 15th May '17 8:51:36 PM by Elle

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#189161: May 15th 2017 at 8:49:11 PM

[up][up][up][up]Right

edited 15th May '17 8:49:41 PM by RAlexa21th

Continue writing our story of peace.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#189162: May 15th 2017 at 8:52:51 PM

@Ambar: Almost anything you say could be said on Breitbart with a few words switched around. Or it could be me. With a few more changes it could be said by Barrak Obama. In using a common language, our vocabulary tends to overlap considerably.

[up] It's actually 19%, but here's the report on this.

obviously it's not authoritative, but it is a scholarly estimate (a survey of experts), so I'm prepared to take it seriously; note that while the risk of human extinction is fairly small, a catastrophe that kills at least 1 billion people over the course of the 21st century is much higher.

Either way, our current course as a species might very well lead an outside observer to conclude we are trying to prove Shklovskii correct about it being in the nature of intelligent life to destroy itself. My point was that, over a long enough timescale, all societies are doomed to fail in the end; there's no way to avoid periodic crises, and the best that can be done to is take them in stride and adapt.

edited 15th May '17 9:04:16 PM by CaptainCapsase

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#189163: May 15th 2017 at 8:53:05 PM

Man, there are at least three fairly dumb conversations going on here right now. Good job guys. All of this nonsense certainly strikes me as more important than Trump getting informants killed.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#189164: May 15th 2017 at 8:53:05 PM

@Ambar <after reading said story>

Incredible. Someone actually made Cenk seem almost reasonable.

Yeesh, even most Russians aren't as defensive of Putin. Their attitude towards Putin is more "eh, we've had worse and we currently don't have anyone better".

[up]TBF, there's not really much we can do about that besides filing it in the "yet another reason I need to vote Democrat in 2018 and 2020" folder of our brains. I'm still reeling from the stupidity of Trump getting fake news from other morons in the WH.

I've been saying for a while now that Trump being an irresponsible moron is not really a good thing regardless of how much it might help on the domestic front since it means he's more liable to make a dog's breakfast of foreign policy.

edited 15th May '17 8:58:29 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#189165: May 15th 2017 at 9:00:33 PM

[up][up]There's nothing really new about that, nor anything really to talk about. It's not even really verified by other sources, as much as I'm inclined to believe Wa-Po is right.

Trump commits new outrage, can we impeach him yet already? News at 11.

Outrage only goes so far and it is tiring. Talking about possible futures trying to find a hopeful one is more interesting at the moment, derails by the anti-Unicorns aside.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#189166: May 15th 2017 at 9:09:33 PM

Someone previously said horseshoe theory is nonsense, but I don't know—an awful lot of the stuff written by the Unicorn Brigaders—this piece obviously included—would, with one or two small word changes, fit in nicely on Breitbart. There's a reason for that.

Horseshoe theory is spot on. They're both cut from the same cloth of being uninformed idiots.

While a good chunk of that (if not a good plurality) of the left is mainly being contrarian for the sake of it. Having to rebel against the establishment like a child throwing a tantrum when they don't get their way.

New Survey coming this weekend!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#189167: May 15th 2017 at 9:12:22 PM

BTW, did anyone else notice this bit from the Wapo story about said leak?

Link for reference

U.S. officials said that the National Security Council continues to prepare multi-page briefings for Trump to guide him through conversations with foreign leaders, but that he has insisted that the guidance be distilled to a single page of bullet points — and often ignores those.

Ugh, our POS POTUS has the attention span of a gnat. And I'm probably being unfair to gnats.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jasaiga Since: Jan, 2015
#189168: May 15th 2017 at 9:18:24 PM

In other news, The progressive groups that Hillary's new PAC Onward Together has chosen to fund:

Swing Left

Emerge America

Color of Change

Indivisible

Run for Something

I see a distinct lack of neoliberal shill organizations in this list.

[lol]

edited 15th May '17 9:18:39 PM by Jasaiga

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#189170: May 15th 2017 at 9:20:35 PM

[up][up] but...but...her emails! Bernie! Make America great again!

edited 15th May '17 9:22:51 PM by fruitpork

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#189171: May 15th 2017 at 9:22:00 PM

Horseshoe theory is bullshit because it acts as if politics is best understood on a 1 and a half half axis model, that's just factually incorrect (square theory is a slight improvement because it's a two axis model and cube theory allows for thee axis, but none of them are perfect due to the fact that every issue deserves its own axis) It ignores the possibility of holding multiple views that cross the spectrum, it assumes that anyone far enough left or right in one way must be the same in other ways.

It also ignores that you can get ideological purist centerists and even centrists exstreamists. The fact that commtied centrists can be just as stubborn, nitpicking and desperate for a fight as the hard left is one that this thread proves itself rather often.

Assholes and stubborn purists exist across the standard left-right spectrum, purism knows no true ideology than that of purism itself.

edited 15th May '17 9:23:23 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#189172: May 15th 2017 at 9:22:20 PM

@Ambar: Almost anything you say could be said on Breitbart with a few words switched around. Or it could be me. With a few more changes it could be said by Barrak Obama. In using a common language, our vocabulary tends to overlap considerably.

Speaking of deflections, that would be a case study in one. You know damn well what I mean Caspase. The pro-Putin, rabidly anti-Democratic (and anti-"establishment liberal") tone of the article I posted is saved from being a Breitbart article only through the defense of Cenk's ostensible victim as a "true progressive".

I've never seen evidence of that though.

You've never seen evidence of what, Jacobin doing a really shitty job? Read some of their book reviews. Their attempts at taking down stuff critical of the USSR tend to be pretty painfully awful.

And none of that was related to the topic we were discussing. You're the only one who wants to make a big deal out of it, and a big personal-attack laden deal out of it. It could have been presented better but it was accurate for the topic.

And if I may, I find your attitude annoying and inflammatory whether I agree with your points or not and wish you would find a tone besides "constantly accusatory or derisive".

Well Elle, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I find it hard to be anything but dismissive of a magazine that named itself after one group of mass murdering asshats and that has on occasion defended other mass murdering asshats (or at least tried to cast aspersions on those who criticize them). I certainly have no interest in giving said magazine any links to their website, and I am going to look askance at anything quoted from them, not least because, as you yourself so aptly demonstrated, it's so damn unnecessary to quote from them. There are lots of reputable sources that are available for use in criticizing the likes of Gillibrand, sources that don't butcher the presentation of the facts, or name themselves after the guys who thought "Great Terror" was a good name for something.

On that note, seriously, what is it with supposed progressives and naming themselves after terrible goddamn people? The Young Turks. Jacobin Magazine. What's next, khmerrouge.net? There have been thousands of enlightened, progressive, forward thinking leftists in history. Yet instead of honouring those people, two of the largest, supposedly leftist publications online, name themselves after a right-wing nationalist group and the nuttier side of the French Revolution.

We—by which I mean almost all of us in this thread—are the progressive left. We are the people who look at teams called the "Redskins" and streets named after Confederate generals and say "that ain't right." We are the people who push for Confederate statues and flags to be taken off state property, and for the feelings of victims of discrimination and violence to be, if not outright protected by hatespeech laws, then at least respected in the public discourse. We are supposed to be better than this.

And yet, here we are. TYT and Jacobin Magazine. Millions of subscribers and no apparent notion of what their name stands for.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#189173: May 15th 2017 at 9:27:51 PM

While I do think that the debate on poor source choice has dragged on a bit I think it may be worth noting that Mad did push Amber's very obvious personal Berserk Button of Stalinist apologia, even if just by proxy by linking to people who'd do such things.

Oh and I'll hold my hand up and honestly admit that if someone links to right wing sources I don't trust I always ask for another source, if the Daily Mail said that the sky was blue I'd feel compelled to go check, I regularly strait up ignore links that go to 'news' sources I know can't be trusteed.

[down] Guy Fawkes masks are even worse, the man was a Catholic Monarchist, not some kind of libertarian trying to bring about mob rule.

edited 15th May '17 9:34:16 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#189174: May 15th 2017 at 9:32:44 PM

The Young Turks. Jacobin Magazine. What's next, khmerrouge.net?

Or the Red Guard Reborn.

It's like those people who wore Che Guevara shirts without having the faintest understanding of what he was really like.

[down]No, thankfully "Red Guard Reborn" is not a real site or movement. As far as I know. I just came up with it on the spot as a hypothetical name similar to your suggestion of khmerrouge.net.

edited 15th May '17 9:44:34 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#189175: May 15th 2017 at 9:35:30 PM

While I do think that the debate on poor source choice has dragged on a bit I think it may be worth noting that Mad did push Amber's very obvious personal Beserk Button of Stalinist apologia, even if just by proxy by linking to people who'd do such things.

Oh and I'll hold my hand up and honestly admit that if someone links to right wing sources I don't trust I always ask for another source, if the Daily Mail said that the sky was blue I'd feel compelled to go check, I regularly strait up ignore links that go to 'news' sources I know can't be trusteed.

I feel much the same about FOX et al, as you do about The Daily Mail. I think if FOX told me eating was necessary, I'd contemplate the merits of starvation. And I feel much the same way about supposedly leftist sites like Jacobin.

If people want to criticize the likes of Gillibrand, go for it. I don't particularly want her running for president; if nothing else, I see little to indicate she's capable of winning. I think the opportunism accusations I've seen thrown around previously are silly, and essentially impossible to prove either way, but as long as we're not trying to evict her from her Senate seat, I don't care all that much.

I do care when that criticism comes from a problematic website. It's not exactly a secret around here that my opinion of Bernie Sanders isn't particularly high, but I don't link to Breitbart, or even FOX, when criticizing him—even if those FOX pieces reference actual sources like NYT.

Or the Red Guard Reborn.

Please tell me that's not a real site. I'd look it up, but I don't want to even have that in my search history.

It's like those people who wore Che Guevara shirts without having the faintest understanding of what he was really like.

Anecdotal, but I remember a bro-leftist trying to tell me once that all those Arab kids wearing Bin Laden shirts were proof positive that Islam was an inherently violent faith and that people in the Middle East were entirely behind al-Qaeda's agenda.

He was wearing a Che Guevara shirt when he said it.

edited 15th May '17 9:38:09 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar


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