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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#189126: May 15th 2017 at 8:02:29 PM

NVM

edited 15th May '17 8:03:22 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#189127: May 15th 2017 at 8:03:11 PM

[up][up][up] There's no reason to be sorry for that honestly. He blew his "chance" in like a week or two after being elected, but giving him one in the first place is, if not common courtesy, something that we really kind of had to do whether we wanted to or not.

edited 15th May '17 8:03:38 PM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#189128: May 15th 2017 at 8:04:03 PM

[up]x5 And although I did ask for it specifically, it should have been linked with the quote you gave (or you could have included the inline links in your quote).

On a lighter note: Things you can do in D.C. with a projector and a lot of balls.

edited 15th May '17 8:04:37 PM by Elle

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#189129: May 15th 2017 at 8:04:18 PM

It's only treason if you collude with a formally declared enemy of the United States. Which Russia is not. If he had leaked it to ISIS, that would be treason. Leaking it to Russia is merely criminal. Its very clearly impeachable.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#189130: May 15th 2017 at 8:04:55 PM

I find it hilariously pathetic that we're still talking about who's the True Progressive in the house when Donald J. Trump has probably committed high treason in front of the entire nation. Some commentary on this: [1]
While at least some are fired up about this (and I don't know their history)...this latest outrage is just that. I think this is just the way things are now. Those warnings from the beginning about not normalizing Trump didn't mean that we wouldn't get used to this—like crabs in a slowly boiling pot.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#189131: May 15th 2017 at 8:06:12 PM

@Captain What's the definition of fringe here?

Popularity-wise? Too left/right?

fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#189132: May 15th 2017 at 8:06:38 PM

[up]x4 that's brilliant.

edited 15th May '17 8:06:57 PM by fruitpork

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#189133: May 15th 2017 at 8:08:00 PM

I find it hilariously pathetic that we're still talking about who's the True Progressive in the house when Donald J. Trump has probably committed high treason in front of the entire nation.

Well, that is a longstanding pattern. Republican qualifications needed to be president: win, and have enough working fingers to sign whatever legislation the most hardcore right wing parts of the legislature, which they're continually making more and more right wing through primaries and local races. (And the working fingers thing is Not Hyperbole, that is literally all that the speaker in question, former Reagan administration officially and anti-tax/anti-government zealot Grover Norquist, thinks a president needs.)

Liberal/progressive qualifications to be president: be the purest, wisest, most noble and morally uncompromised person running who perfectly expresses my individual desires for president and disregards those of others, even the people who largely agree with me. Preferably fill me with unreasonable inspiration along the way to make me think the sole act of voting for you will fix the myriad of systemic and social problems that need decades to fix, so that when you fail to fix them in four years I will decide that I'm all dejected and unwilling to put any further effort into things. Oh, and in reality you probably only have two years to fix those problems, because turning out for a midterm is generally too much trouble and the inspirational fairy dust will probably have worn off by then.

Then after that, liberals and progressives will go back to fighting over who's the next person to crown as the savior. It's such a longstanding pattern by now that parodies done of liberal politics in the 70s could be applied almost note for note to discussions in this thread.

edited 15th May '17 8:14:46 PM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#189134: May 15th 2017 at 8:10:18 PM

@Century: Indeed, this is more or less a normal day in the Trump presidency.

@Skillz: that's a bit difficult to say, there's a sliding scale. Peer reviewed scholarly articles more or less have to be taken seriously at least even if the claims sound ridiculous on the surface, major publications like the nytimes and wapo are assumed to be credible in regards to the factual claims, though that's not 100%, then you have comparatively in-depth sources like the Atlantic, the Economist and so on and those tend to be a cut above NYT and Wapo.

So if you want to back up a claim that is considered "too far left", make sure your source is peer reviewed, and be prepared to defend it like its your dissertation.

Posters here would probably regard cable news as credible other than Fox, but I generally try to avoid them.

edited 15th May '17 8:11:32 PM by CaptainCapsase

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#189135: May 15th 2017 at 8:13:03 PM

I'd also avoid linking the WSJ for the most part, partly because it has a paywall. And because Murdoch sucks and I don't want a single cent going to him if I can avoid it.

edited 15th May '17 8:13:26 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#189136: May 15th 2017 at 8:13:24 PM

[up][up][up] That's a bit of an exaggeration of what happened; as President Trump gets to decide what's classified and what's not, unfortunately. He broke protocol for declassifying, but that's not high treason. It might be an impeachable offense though.

Normally the President has authority to declassify anything yes, but my understanding is that this does not apply to foreign intelligence gained through an agreement (in this case, the agreement included not sharing with Russia). And not only did he share it with Russia, he revealed the very city the source was in. Whoever the informant was, they have almost certainly been executed by now.

edited 15th May '17 8:19:00 PM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#189137: May 15th 2017 at 8:14:50 PM

Non-FOX cable news is ok for "this big headline happened" except in active disaster situations. They are iffy for analysis and in-depth coverage.

edited 15th May '17 8:16:56 PM by Elle

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#189138: May 15th 2017 at 8:15:48 PM

Honesty should compel us to acknowledge that there is a great deal of diversity in terms of progressive values, people and approaches. If progressivism is about anything, it's about taking power away from elites and devolving it to marginalized and vulnerable populations. Looking for an ideal, individual flag-waver for the entire progressive movement is a contradiction in terms, and anyone calling for such a thing merely reveals a profound misunderstanding of what progressivism is.

We don't need a leader- we need millions of them.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#189139: May 15th 2017 at 8:16:41 PM

[up][up][up] That's assuming it actually happened as described and is provable by somebody prepared to testify; isn't this from an anonymous source? If it turns into a he said she said between the National Security Adviser and some random White House staffer, the former is going to be taken far more seriously than the latter.

@Wanderer: Simply accepting the status quo and resigning ourselves that change will be incremental and imperceptibly slow is not reflective of how societies have evolved historically, and if the past 30 years are any indication will in fact result in a gradual, halting regression on many fronts. Typically things reach the point of a crisis before changing very rapidly, often for the worse if authorities fail to respond adequately. Now, we shouldn't try to make things worse than they already are because that dramatically increases the likelihood of things becoming worse rather than better when we finally reach a breaking point, but thinking small and simple doesn't pay for the left.

edited 15th May '17 8:19:11 PM by CaptainCapsase

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#189140: May 15th 2017 at 8:19:16 PM

[up][up]Yep. Which makes the progressive desire to crown messiahs self-defeating. It's a big part of why our agenda has so much trouble getting traction. We've spent too much of our energy searching for the perfect leader, elevating them, then having to do the same thing all over again when they don't succeed in solving everything.

edited 15th May '17 8:19:28 PM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#189142: May 15th 2017 at 8:19:49 PM

I half suspect that this Holding Out for a Hero business among some "progressives" (note the air quotes) is merely an excuse to avoid any actual responsibility while playing at being opposed to "The Man".

Disgusted, but not surprised
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#189143: May 15th 2017 at 8:19:51 PM

There is a process that even the president has to follow. He cant and shouldnt declassify anything willly nilly. That rather goes against his oath of office- to protect and preserve the Constitution.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#189144: May 15th 2017 at 8:21:05 PM

The president can declassify information under US law, he doesn't have the right to unilaterally break an agreement the US has made with another party, now he can do it anyway this that's a good way to get people to stop making agreements with the US.

The classified information rabbit hole can go pretty deep by the way, currently the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand have an agreement to share intelegence unless they specifically classify it as not being shareable. While the agreement is unlikely to be terminated (unless Trump goes full crazy and trys to spy on one of the mentioned countries) we could easily see a lot of intelegence suddenly being classified as "UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, eyes only".

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#189145: May 15th 2017 at 8:22:02 PM

@Tactical: That's not especially unusual. Sanders isn't great about those sort of disclosures, but acting like he's exceptionally bad about it is a bit disingenuous. It's also pretty much totally irrelevant to this thread.

edited 15th May '17 8:24:12 PM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#189146: May 15th 2017 at 8:27:59 PM

Is it too much to hope that when it comes to 2020 we could at least advance a candidate that the disproving progressives will, if not put on a pedestal, at least keep their grumbling to a minimum? Not saying we have to satisfy the far left but good on policy stuff the Sanders-ites and the centerists agree on with decent optics?

It's not even that I agree with the "unicorn brigade", but if it would net a more unified front...

edited 15th May '17 8:29:20 PM by Elle

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#189147: May 15th 2017 at 8:32:11 PM

[up] The only way the "unicorn brigade" (who are hopefully not a major portion of progressives) would join a united front would be if they were in charge.

edited 15th May '17 8:32:39 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#189148: May 15th 2017 at 8:33:09 PM

[up][up] That rather depends on how crowded the field is in 2020. If there's just 2 serious people there, it's going to be centrist leaning candidates all the way down, ideally someone taking after Macron, because the primaries are structured to make sure the party bosses get their preferred choice nominated, despite having conceded to allow the nominees to be elected by the party's general membership.

That's very hard to beat, and one of the many things that's utterly unprecedented about Trump. If the field is crowded, we'll probably have a more competitive race.

edited 15th May '17 8:33:16 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#189149: May 15th 2017 at 8:34:17 PM

[up]X4 Dear god man do you have to take the bait? Fox could only have made the attempt to bait you into yet another "is Sanders a good guy or should we all hate him?" fight more obvious by using a giant flashing neon sign that said "I wanna fight Caspase and Mad again, let's have another round".

[up][up] They don't want to be in charge, that'd mean leading, making tough desicions, being held to account, they want to throw rocks and scream about how they aren't listened to. Worst of all they can't even throw consistently valid rocks, that's at least worth something.

edited 15th May '17 8:36:19 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#189150: May 15th 2017 at 8:36:33 PM

[up] I think my response was measured and more or less indicated I'd prefer to put a lid on it.


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