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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#188126: May 10th 2017 at 11:17:40 AM

Edit: Mandatory voting doesn't inherently solve the problem of ignorant voters turning out for the guy that offers them the Moon and/or promises to stick it to those evil "others".

Not mention, again, that until we solve voter suppression, mandatory voting just further penalizes the already disenfranchised.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#188127: May 10th 2017 at 11:18:15 AM

[up][up] We already have one in the WH.

edited 10th May '17 11:18:22 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#188128: May 10th 2017 at 11:19:11 AM

What Crimson said. I do not want to escalate tensions with Russia. All it takes is an irrational actor.
So what, let Russia do what it wants? That will simply embolden them, Putin has to understand that we will oppose their influence.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#188129: May 10th 2017 at 11:22:36 AM

Trump is an irrational actor and if we don't kneecap Putin he'll install more irrational actors. We need to stop him because the more Trump type people we have in power the greater a chance one of them does start WW3.

edited 10th May '17 11:22:56 AM by Kostya

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#188130: May 10th 2017 at 11:24:41 AM

[up][up] The notion that not escalating a confrontation means the other party will only grow bolder and more belligerent is not really consistent with history*; such an outcome is far from impossible from conciliatory measures, but far from inevitable, and not escalating doesn't necessarily mean letting down one's guard.

* Nazi Germany is very much the exception in this regard, and they are more or less the single most prominent example of an irrational actor in international relations. Contrast that to the success of British appeasement of the United States earlier in the 20th century, and most other cases where great power confrontations were defused through diplomacy.

edited 10th May '17 11:28:01 AM by CaptainCapsase

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#188131: May 10th 2017 at 11:26:31 AM

The thing is Putin is still doing this. He didn't just get Trump in and call it a day. He's actively trying to attack France. Next will be England. Then maybe the 2020 election. It has to stop somehow.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#188132: May 10th 2017 at 11:26:56 AM

Who is this "we" that's going to go after Putin's government? Right now the executive authority in this country is owned by Trump and his allies. It's too late — we've lost that war. Putin has destabilized us and guaranteed that even if we aren't totally destroyed, we are neutralized: unable to effectively oppose Russia's interests due to staggering incompetence.

I mean, sure, maybe Europe's nations could go after Russia to prevent the same thing happening to them. But it's about six months too late for the United States.

We lost, time to pack it in and wait for the redo in 2020. Where, by the way, voting demographics may not be favorable because, guess what, Trump's sabotaging the census.

edited 10th May '17 11:28:35 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#188133: May 10th 2017 at 11:33:26 AM

[up][up] Calling what Russia is doing an "attack" is a bit of an overstatement; this level of espionage is pretty tame by the standards of the cold war, and other than Trump, there's no real success to show for it.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#188134: May 10th 2017 at 11:34:08 AM

How is a new FBI director chosen? Does the president appoint someone to the position?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#188135: May 10th 2017 at 11:35:13 AM

[up][up] The notion that not escalating a confrontation means the other party will only grow bolder and more belligerent is not really consistent with history*; such an outcome is far from impossible from conciliatory measures, but far from inevitable, and not escalating doesn't necessarily mean letting down one's guard.
  • Nazi Germany is very much the exception in this regard, and they are more or less the single most prominent example of an irrational actor in international relations. Contrast that to the success of British appeasement of the United States earlier in the 20th century, and most other cases where great power confrontations were defused through diplomacy.
While you aren't wrong, it honestly depends on what kind of enemy you're facing. Yes Putin is not expansionistic like the Nazis but he does desire a powerful Russia that can dominate its neighbors, which he can only accomplish if he undercuts his rivals in Europe and the US. I simply don't consider any kind of conciliatory measure to be likely productive, concessions aren't always bad but against someone like Putin they are simply a detrimental waste of time.

Who is this "we" that's going to go after Putin's government?
Obviously not the current administration, I would assume that those of us here who are advocating for such action are thinking of a Democratic administration in 2020.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#188136: May 10th 2017 at 11:35:18 AM

[up][up] Appointed by the President, confirmed by the senate.

[up] It's very unlikely we can be friends with Russia in the near future, but we don't necessarily have to be mortal enemies, and in fact for the sake of the world it's very important that this confrontation does not become too heated. While Russia* is unwilling to budge in regards to what it views as its core security interests in eastern Europe, the further away from the Russian border one looks, the more room there is for negotiation, as was the case with the Iran deal.

* And I mean Russia, not just Putin's government, because it's likely even a democratic Russia would be extremely upset about its neighbors aligning with the EU and/or NATO.

edited 10th May '17 11:46:30 AM by CaptainCapsase

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#188137: May 10th 2017 at 11:42:05 AM

[up][up][up]While I do believe some other tropers may be getting too hawkish here, being from a country where the US interfered with our democracy I believe that messing with another country's elections is a line that shouldn't be crossed and that there should be some big consequences to anyone that tries.

That aside, here's a Quinnipiac poll where they asked people for the first thing that comes to mind when talking about Trump. Most results are pretty negative on him:

  • idiot 39
  • incompetent 31
  • liar 30
  • leader 25
  • unqualified 25
  • president 22
  • strong 21
  • businessman 18
  • ignorant 16
  • egotistical 15
  • asshole 13
  • stupid 13
  • arrogant 12
  • trying 12
  • bully 11
  • business 11
  • narcissist 11
  • successful 11
  • disgusting 10
  • great 10
  • clown 9
  • dishonest 9
  • racist 9
  • American 8
  • bigot 8
  • good 8
  • money 8
  • smart 8
  • buffoon 7
  • con-man 7
  • crazy 7
  • different 7
  • disaster 7
  • rich 7
  • despicable 6
  • dictator 6
  • aggressive 5
  • blowhard 5
  • decisive 5
  • embarrassment 5
  • evil 5
  • greedy 5
  • inexperienced 5
  • mental 5
  • negotiator 5
  • patriotism 5

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#188138: May 10th 2017 at 11:44:59 AM

X6[up] Already with defeatism?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#188139: May 10th 2017 at 12:03:20 PM

It's not defeatism to admit you lost a battle. The average person's ability to influence foreign affairs is limited to voting for people they agree with and making a stink when the government does stuff we don't like.

It is pointless to call for US retaliation when the ruling administration opposes it. We're hamstrung until we can deal with our internal shit.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#188140: May 10th 2017 at 12:07:20 PM

It's not defeatism to admit you lost a battle. The average person's ability to influence foreign affairs is limited to voting for people they agree with and making a stink when the government does stuff we don't like.
I agree.
It is pointless to call for US retaliation when the ruling administration opposes it. We're hamstrung until we can deal with our internal shit.
Maybe, I suppose that's why it's good that no-one is calling for it now. We all understand that the Trump administration would never do that, we're just supporting it down the line.

edited 10th May '17 12:07:43 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#188141: May 10th 2017 at 12:15:12 PM

Calling what Russia is doing an "attack" is a bit of an overstatement; this level of espionage is pretty tame by the standards of the cold war, and other than Trump, there's no real success to show for it.
Russia took clandestine action in order to influence a US election. That's absolutely an attack on our sovereignty. It altered the American government to be what Russia wanted instead of what the American people wanted. If that's not an attack, then what is?

If Russia had sent in a special forces team to sneak around and rifle through filing cabinets, would that constitute an attack in your mind? Because that's essentially what they did. The fact that it happened through a computer instead of in person doesn't change the fact that they broke in, stole information, and then escaped without being caught (until much later, well after the fact, when the damage had already been done).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#188142: May 10th 2017 at 12:25:18 PM

Man, I'm glad he's fired but I wish it had been done differently. It's weird seeing people say nice things about comey like he deserves better.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#188143: May 10th 2017 at 12:30:01 PM

What was the situation again, he hates Trump but hated Hilary more for all the weird reasons that people hated Hilary. Going after people you hate doesn't really imply integrity either way.

Especially when, presumably if Hilary were president he'd still be able to continue the investigation on her, whereas with Trump he probably should have seen this coming.

edited 10th May '17 12:31:28 PM by LSBK

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#188144: May 10th 2017 at 12:30:24 PM

Comey was a toad, but removing him on Trump's terms is disastrous. We're approaching a point where something could be considered malevolent because Trump did it — his intent is pure evil.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#188145: May 10th 2017 at 12:31:05 PM

[up][up][up][up][awesome]

[up][up][up]I agree, how douchely they fired him just brings me joy. But what doesn't make me happy is that Trump fired him, the President firing the guy in charge of investigating him is awful.

edited 10th May '17 12:31:35 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#188147: May 10th 2017 at 12:33:17 PM

[up][lol], that is amusing. A shame that the GOP are gigantic spineless unprincipled assholes who will never go against Trump.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#188148: May 10th 2017 at 12:34:01 PM

@Ambar Son Of Deshar: My main point was that it was stupid to blame Sanders for Mello's defeat: if he didn't get his endorsement, he might have lost even harder. I do agree that the Democrats do not need to follow Bernie's policies in order to create the "Blue Wave". Moving more towards the left, specially in terms of healthcare is something I would personally like to see though.

About Russia's hacking, if there's anything to be done in this situation, it's not to "attack" them or whatever other extreme solutions being proposed here are, but to fight their spread of misinformation, by funding teams for the prevention of hacking and cyber-terrorism for example.

edited 10th May '17 12:35:42 PM by Grafite

Life is unfair...
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#188149: May 10th 2017 at 12:37:02 PM

[up] You may have a point; Thinking about it, Mallo didn't have the best Abortion Policies. Him being Anti-Abortion might've hurt his chances with the Youth Vote. Without Sanders' Endorsement, Mallo could've gotten creamed.

Which makes me think that Sanders has no real power himself, he just represents what the Youth want. They want someone like Sanders, not someone like Mallo.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#188150: May 10th 2017 at 12:38:39 PM

I agree in principle with the sovereignty argument but It will be hard to get the argument to stick unless we can prove without doubt that Trump and team were in on it (something that might happen if the rumblings from British intelligence examining the Steele dossier are accurate).

Back in October the warning Obama gave Putin was that tampering with the actual voting process was the Line that Must Not Be Crossed. At the time it wasn't known whether Trump was complicit or a dupe. Being complicit changes the game as well as the way it's prosecuted. The legal definition of treason under the Constitution is something I keep harping on and if they're complicit it starts to be a very close call where I can't say whether a court wouldn't rule it to be so.

But as a statement of general principle: messing with other countries elections is the very definition of treading on soverneignty because in a democratic system, elections are the equivalent of royal succession in a monarchy - the process in which the authority of the government rests.


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