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DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#187051: May 4th 2017 at 5:56:43 PM

[up][up] Other then people thinking Republicans are complete maniacal douches, not really... But a lot of Republicans are complete maniacal douches, so I don't blame them.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#187052: May 4th 2017 at 5:58:08 PM

Slate on how progressive activists failed to work against AHCA 2.0. Long story short, you can't pat yourself on the back for defeating the first version and then move on to other things.

And Politico discussing potential issues with the Republican Senate and the problems various Senators have with it.

edited 4th May '17 6:01:22 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#187053: May 4th 2017 at 6:02:10 PM

[up] AHCA 1.0 was defeated by the GOP's most extreme members being unwilling to vote for the first bill.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#187054: May 4th 2017 at 6:05:04 PM

[up]Of course, but that's not the version of reality that a lot of Democrats subscribe to. Warren, for instance, has repeatedly credited progressive grassroots movements with putting the bill in its grave. Now, given how starved the Dems are for good news at the moment, I can't really blame her for that, but it ensured that no one was out trying to fight this new abomination. A lot of Democrats (and a certain Independent) didn't condemn the new version of the AHCA until Wednesday, one day before it was voted on, and there were comparatively few angry people calling their Congressmen and demanding they vote against it.

Red state Dems come out against the new bill. From McCaskill to Heitkamp to Manchin all 10 of the Democratic Senators up for reelection in states won by Trump have condemned AHCA 2.0. Jon Tester (D-Montana) says “The House is forcing seniors to pay more, jeopardizing health care for Montana women, and failing to address the rising costs that are draining pocketbooks.” Joe Donnelly of Indiana says “We should be making our health care system better, not worse.” McCaskill says "It’s a disaster for Missouri families.” Etc, etc.

I hope the Democratic aparatus sends a lot of money their way, because one way or another the AHCA is going to be a serious issue come next year, and all of them are declaring their intention to vote the party line on this one.

edited 4th May '17 6:11:55 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#187055: May 4th 2017 at 6:08:20 PM

So, what do the GOP even want?

They aren't evil for evil's sake, surely?

Do they think what they're doing is actually best for the country, or are my worst assumptions about them true?

As an aside, I only learned about this new AHCA plague today. Granted, I'm British, but still.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#187056: May 4th 2017 at 6:10:29 PM

[up]Corruption, ideological lunacy, Sociopathic malevolence, pick one. Fundamentally the GOP is insane and they are the result.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#187057: May 4th 2017 at 6:10:46 PM

[up][up] They're a death cult. They want millions of people to die of starvation and easily-preventable and -treatable diseases pretty much just for their own sick amusement.

edited 4th May '17 6:12:52 PM by TrashJack

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#187058: May 4th 2017 at 6:11:12 PM

Overall I'd say it's likely a mixture of greed, genuinely believing their horrible ideals, wanting to stick it to people they hate, and being too cowardly to stand up for what's right if they have disagreements when it matters, with each element being more prominent depending on the individual.

With Paul Ryan for example I think he's mostly ideological. So is Pence.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#187059: May 4th 2017 at 6:12:15 PM

A lot of them are probably true believers in all of the vodoo economics the free-market will fix everything crap. Others, probably just want something that will look "good" to their crazy constituents as getting rid of Obamacare does that. Others are just doing it out of spite. Who knows what the proportion is for each group.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#187060: May 4th 2017 at 6:14:19 PM

Of course they're not evil. They're just human. They are self serving to the point they see doing otherwise as evil. They will give their vote to whatever serves their interests the most because doing otherwise not only hurts them financially and economically but it hurts those close to them financially as well.

"Why should I vote against this thing that benefits this guy I know who gives jobs to hundreds, maybe thousands of people? Are my opponents blind? He's a good guy! And I know that jobs are good, right! I mean with all that the news talk about unemployment rates, the mere act of having a job should be sufficient to guarantee a happy and productive life, no? Why do people hate me for wanting to protect that!?"

It's short term thinking and indubitably sheltered and uneducated. In short, human.

edited 4th May '17 6:16:46 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#187061: May 4th 2017 at 6:17:04 PM

[up]Then what does evil even mean? Because being human and being willing to fuck over your common man is evil to most deontological or humanistic moral systems.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#187062: May 4th 2017 at 6:25:41 PM

Evil is a non tangible concept that can be applied to whatever benefits one group or the other the most.

My point is that it's human nature to be ignorant and sheltered towards things that are defined by the environment that surrounds you. They don't see what they are doing as evil, and we see what they are doing as evil because of the way we were raised. And demonizing them by calling them simply evil is really just as ignorant as what they are doing, since one is ignoring how many variables are at play that could be not just fostering the current problem, but creating more (AKA the environment that made them think that sort of thing in the first way)

Deontologically or Consequentially speaking, classifying one thing or another as evil is absolutely pointless if simply demonizing doesn't actually FIX the problem.

Yes, the fact that they are in power is a great hamper in fixing that problem but if the people who would like to fix the problem can't even identify its source then you've got even bigger problems than what you initially thought.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#187063: May 4th 2017 at 6:26:39 PM

I think they're ridiculously selfish and want lots of money and kickbacks from corporations. Of course, there is the fact that the true ACA is actually liked by corporations, so I'm probably somewhat wrong. But I think that Greed plus It's All About Me sums it up.

edited 4th May '17 6:27:00 PM by BearyScary

Do not obey in advance.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#187064: May 4th 2017 at 6:28:35 PM

It's a combination of wanting a "win", wanting to move on to tax cuts already, wanting to stick with the party line out of tribalism and/or cowardice, wanting to prove their bullshit free market ideology, and wanting to punish the poor for being poor.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#187065: May 4th 2017 at 6:31:21 PM

All I am saying is that you yourself, or me, could just as easily be espousing their exact same positions if you had grown in the environment they did or in one they crafted as they do, and to reduce their life to something that could just as well define you or me is a bit silly since it doesn't actually fix the problems.

No matter how many times you point facts out at people or demonstrate just how stupid Trump can be, neither he nor his supporters will change.

Insult them, berate them or minimize them all you want. They're still as human as you are.

edited 4th May '17 6:32:43 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#187066: May 4th 2017 at 6:33:20 PM

[up]...And? No one said they weren't human, they said they were assholes. And frankly if nothing is going to change them, might as well call them what they are.

And more fun conflicts of interest. Trump's former campaign manager is working out a deal with a Venezuelan oil company...that's about to be bought by Russia.

edited 4th May '17 6:35:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#187067: May 4th 2017 at 6:35:17 PM

In case anyone lives in their districts, the Republicans who voted no on AHCA.

http://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/meet-the-republicans-who-voted-no-on-the-health-care-bill

edited 4th May '17 6:36:10 PM by megaeliz

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#187068: May 4th 2017 at 6:35:35 PM

[up][up]I mean, we did seem to veery pretty close into some territory we should go to like wishing death on people and such.

If nothing else all the talk of "pure evil" certainly is dehumanizing to an extent. It's not saying they aren't wrong or shouldn't be fought tooth or nail, but that distinction seems to be lost here often.

edited 4th May '17 6:37:03 PM by LSBK

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#187069: May 4th 2017 at 6:38:23 PM

Well. I am going to repeat myself once more then once again descend into boobs and dicks jokes:

I'm saying that if the question you are trying to solve is "ARE THEY EVIL" (A question whose answer leads...nowhere) then you are ignoring the important thing that could lead to actual solutions such as "WHY DO THEY BEHAVE LIKE THIS AND HOW CAN WE HELP THEM"

Now then how about that Trump hair.

Ridiculous, isn't it! Ha ha!

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#187070: May 4th 2017 at 6:40:58 PM

So, there's many potential reasons for the GOP to do what they do?

Interesting.

I often wonder how different I could have been. Would I have still wanted to be as well informed if I was a Right Winger, for example?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#187071: May 4th 2017 at 6:48:27 PM

[up]Heck, I self-identified as a Republican for most of my early life, mainly because my dad's a Republican. Then I was exposed to more liberal influences during my high school and college years. The Dubya administration also soured me on neoconservatism. The obstructionism of the Republican party during the Obama years pretty much soured me on the Republican party for good.

In some respects I'm still fairly conservative. For one thing I don't particularly hate Wall Street or banks.

edited 4th May '17 6:50:06 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#187072: May 4th 2017 at 6:52:15 PM

[up][up]Several posters here, including myself, grew up in a conservative bubble, and there does not seem to be any one antidote that is effective across the full spectrum of people. Honestly, the best thing to do is bite back the most bitter rejoinders and hope more people learn how to think for themselves.

By and large, it is extraordinarily difficult to actually change someone's mind, via debate or presentation of evidence. The usual reaction is to cling to any scrap that supports your perceptions, belittle or tear down anything that does not, and ignore whatever cannot be dismissed. We have been down this conversation as well, if you want to go digging through this thread circa December of last year.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#187074: May 4th 2017 at 6:59:51 PM

@Ambar, I don't think you can blame Warren, etc for being late on the ball to raise the alarm. The GOP rushed the bill to a vote without any of the usual vetting procedures from the Congressional Budget Office, etc (because they know they wouldn't like what they'd hear).

The progressive grassroots (and I'm using that term in the same broad sense that you do) do get credit for frightening the moderate/blue state republicans to vote against the party line. As it is, we only lost by three votes. With more time maybe a few more could have been swayed.

On the other hand, those Pelosi comments about not caring if the bill passes the house so it can be an albatross around the GOP's neck...yeesh. Playing with fire.

edited 4th May '17 7:09:42 PM by Elle

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#187075: May 4th 2017 at 7:07:22 PM

There was a cracked article posted some time ago talking about how what changes a lot of people's minds isn't actually PARTICIPATING IN debates but just reading them and seeing evidence and arguments being presented over a long period of time. That's more or less what happened to me and it's usually quite a slow process because you first have to wrestle with the discomfort or just reach a point where the implications don't make you uncomfortable anymore and you can look at it with a fresh eye.

As far as IRL goes, a big thing that gets people to change is when something personal happens to them, or when you make it personal by talking about people you know. For example, my father (who was fairly conservative at the time) had to readjust a lot of his beliefs when my brother came out as gay and now he's more of a pro-business libertarian.


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