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Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#186626: May 3rd 2017 at 8:59:50 PM

[up][up][up]Two words: internalized misogyny.

MacArthur-Meadows Amendment: What. I wonder what peak Rich Old White Male Hating Everyone Else will look like now, if this isn't it.

edited 3rd May '17 9:00:09 PM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#186627: May 3rd 2017 at 9:00:27 PM

[up]x6 Not yet; there is still the chance that the House doesn't go through with the Vote, due to not actually having enough votes. The Senate Republicans are saying they aren't interested in the current Bill at all, and changing it in any way in the Senate would need to be voted again in the House, and any change could destroy the little chance the House has to pass it already.

If it does pass, and 14 Million people lose their insurance immediately, expect Riots and a Blue Wave in 2018...

edited 3rd May '17 9:00:48 PM by DingoWalley1

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#186628: May 3rd 2017 at 9:00:39 PM

The Progressives (unofficially headed by Sanders), Establishment Dems(Obama/Clinton Wing), Tuesday Republicans(John Mc Cain and his men) and the Tea Party(Rand Paul's wing).

This shit again. Sanders and his brigade do not get to claim the name "progressives" for themselves. Especially while pushing for policies that are socially stagnant at best, actively regressive or reactionary at worst.

Trump could actually be a decent president provided that a good Democrat is there leashing him. So by decent president I mean figurehead to someone who would actually be an a good president.

No. That you think this at all frankly disturbs me. Trump is an authoritarian. It's who he is. He may be a lazy SOB who wants others to do all the work for him, but he will not allow himself to be perceived as any sort of puppet or figurehead. Sooner or later something that this prospective Democrat did would wound that monstrous ego of his, and then he'd go out and do something stupid in order to make himself feel better.

You cannot control wannabe autocrats. Look what's happened to every single person who supposedly had influence on or control over Trump. He's a profoundly unstable narcissist who will lash out when anything provokes him and nothing is ever gonna change that.

I take it that opinions on Sanders have soured some more sense I pieced out of here for awhile? Did anything new come to light about him, or is he just kind of the new Ralph Nader?

Sanders' drive to try and take control of a party he refuses to join is alienating people who once liked him. That he continues to make gaffes like denouncing Jon Ossof as "not a progressive" only to turn around and hail an anti-abortion candidate as a leftist hero, only makes it worse.

Why in the blue hell would women like Ivanka?

Republican women like her for all the reasons why Republican women like each other. A certain substrata of pop feminists also like her for supposedly being an empowered woman in a man's job (ignoring the fact that she's indelibly associated with her father and his sexism in the process).

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186629: May 3rd 2017 at 9:11:00 PM

@R Alexa21th

Women like her, I think

One of the times "like"'s multiple possible meanings is so frustrating.

I'm guessing that the definition of like being used here is "closely resembling the subject or original". In other words, when Ivanka claimed her father would be amazing for women, she was only thinking of women who are similar to her: Rich and famous (white) women who don't need the ACA.

edited 3rd May '17 9:11:27 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#186630: May 3rd 2017 at 9:16:56 PM

Twitter thread on the Upton Amendment, supposedly governing how people with pre-existing conditions will be cares for under the AHCA.

This $8B targeted to take care of ppl w pre-existing conditions . . .

doesn't have to be used for ppl w pre-existing conditions. 4

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186631: May 3rd 2017 at 9:17:33 PM

This shit again. Sanders and his brigade do not get to claim the name "progressives" for themselves. Especially while pushing for policies that are socially stagnant at best, actively regressive or reactionary at worst.

@Ambar You're going to have to learn how to deal with this but the Progressive Caucus (the official progressive group) was started by Bernie Sanders and is headed by Sanders' man, Keith Ellison.

There's no escaping it. He and his cohort represent most of the progressive congressmen in the US. That is how it is in America. Sanders isn't some out of nowhere politician. He's been quite influential for a while. It's just a lot more visible now (and also a lot more powerful).

You may not like it and he may not be your type of progressive leader, but it is what it is.

No. That you think this at all frankly disturbs me. Trump is an authoritarian. It's who he is. He may be a lazy SOB who wants others to do all the work for him, but he will not allow himself to be perceived as any sort of puppet or figurehead. Sooner or later something that this prospective Democrat did would wound that monstrous ego of his, and then he'd go out and do something stupid in order to make himself feel better.

It disturbs you to think that I think Trump is that easily manipulated and weak?tongue

edited 3rd May '17 9:22:25 PM by MadSkillz

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#186632: May 3rd 2017 at 9:25:03 PM

[up][up]That's not even the worst part:

3rd, states only get the money if they CUT essential benefits & pre-ex. An incentive 2 cut.

And the money goes from taxpayers 2 insurers. 10

And now— the kicker. The $ can go to subsidize healthy people anyway. 11

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186633: May 3rd 2017 at 9:28:18 PM

[up] Yep. While the ACA helped reduce income inequality, this new bill will exacerbate it. Robbing the poor to enrich the wealthy.

Think of it this way: Poor female rape victims will lose out on coverage so that rich men can get discounts on vasectomies.

[up][up] It's disturbing that you underestimate how dangerous Trump is. That you think an autocrat can be leashed. People have made that mistake throughout history, and it's never ended well.

edited 3rd May '17 9:30:49 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186634: May 3rd 2017 at 9:34:30 PM

It's disturbing that you underestimate how dangerous Trump is. That you think an autocrat can be leashed. People have made that mistake throughout history, and it's never ended well.

Probably because I've come to the conclusion that he doesn't actually want to be president. He just seems unhappy and ready to pass the job to anyone who is willing to do it for him. All he wants to do is be popular, have people praise him and get richer.

edited 3rd May '17 9:37:31 PM by MadSkillz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186635: May 3rd 2017 at 9:39:31 PM

[up]No, he wants to be the President. He wants to throw his weight around, he wants to blow up those dirty brown and yellow people, he wants to throw the Mexicans out of the country (and maybe into the sea), he wants to suck the nation's lands dry, he wants to grift, he wants to lock up black people, he wants to turn the entire country against his critics, he wants to build a wall with his name on it, he wants to make the USA into a monument to his own disgusting existence...

He just doesn't want to do any real work. So he lets others handle the details while he golfs and whines and complains when things don't go his way.

But as much as he complains, he'll never give it up. Because that will be admitting loss. Defeat. And in his mind, he's a Winner. And Winners don't lose.

He's dangerous in part because he is so damn lazy. He will never learn. He will never try to be better.

edited 3rd May '17 9:41:28 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#186636: May 3rd 2017 at 9:41:08 PM

Remember how when SNL implied that Bannon was the one with the real power, and that made Trump really mad and he demoted Bannon over it? That's gonna happen with anyone he passes power to. And even if it doesn't, it ain't gonna stop him dropping literal and figurative bombs randomly just to remind people who important and in charge he is.

edited 3rd May '17 9:41:29 PM by Gilphon

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#186637: May 3rd 2017 at 9:41:10 PM

Madskillz, the fact that you're taking this so lightly is indeed a bit disturbing. Trump is not 'easily led and weak' first and foremost. What he is is fucking dangerous. It doesn't matter if he ants the job. He's doing the job, and he's beholden to scary points of view.

He is an incredibly narcissistic child of privilege who despises having to put in a modicum of effort for anything. A man who is a callous swindler to everyone he's ever worked with, a man who's malfeasance is pretty much legend, carefully hidden behind a public persona he's adopted for himself. The man is a sexual predator, utterly obsessed with 'winning' over people regardless o consequences and genuinely supports policies that are nightmarish to any logical human being, let alone a progressive.

Trump has risen to power by riding a wave of xenophobic fascism and he is expected to deliver. There's no way to aim this guy to anything but "slightly less worse than fucking horrible." Trump is susceptible to the people like Bannon because he believes them to begin with. He's a white supremacist. He's greedy as hell and gives not the slightest hint of a damn about the poor or the environment. He's petty, spiteful, boorish, stupid and cruel.

You cannot downplay it with "oh, if only we had a Democrat, we'd be fine here!" Trump needs to be recognized for the threat he is and denied any victory at every turn. He's not just stupid, he's stupid and evil.

edited 3rd May '17 9:42:15 PM by Lightysnake

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186638: May 3rd 2017 at 9:42:12 PM

Think Joffrey Baratheon.

Disgusted, but not surprised
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#186640: May 3rd 2017 at 9:44:39 PM

[up] Even scarier. There's no Tywin and Joffrey never had complete access to the most powerful military in the history of the planet.

Ambar You're going to have to learn how to deal with this but the Progressive Caucus (the official progressive group) was started by Bernie Sanders and is headed by Sanders' man, Keith Ellison.

There's no escaping it. He and his cohort represent most of the progressive congressmen in the US. That is how it is in America. Sanders isn't some out of nowhere politician. He's been quite influential for a while. It's just a lot more visible now (and also a lot more powerful).

That does not give him the right to claim 'progressive' as his own personal title to dole out as he wishes. And 'establishment' Dems are still capable of being progressive. John Lewis is as establishment as you get, and he's an unashamed progressive. And a guy who got his skull caved in for it once upon a time. Tom Perez is 'establishment.' He's also a progressive with a record that puts Sanders' own to shame.

edited 3rd May '17 9:45:22 PM by Lightysnake

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186641: May 3rd 2017 at 9:47:15 PM

Joffrey was controlled by Tywin.

That's kind of what I was thinking in my head.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186642: May 3rd 2017 at 9:47:49 PM

Mad Skillz, are you working under the assumption that being willing to work with in the establishment makes you a sellout or ruins your progressive cred?

And what was the situation with Tom Perez? Why was he booed and why didn't Sanders say anything about it?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#186643: May 3rd 2017 at 9:49:43 PM

[up] To these people, it doesn't matter Perez has done more for progressive causes than most anyone. He's 'tainted'

We don't have a Tywin, who couldn't even begin to restrain all of Joffrey's cruelty to begin with.. And don't ignore the entire post.

I'm going to say it flat out right now: people are going to die as a result of this Presidency. Because of healthcare, or environmental regulation, because of Grand Dragon Sessions ramping up militarism in law enforcement, or cut benefits, or military misadventures, or natural disasters with terrible federal responses. There will be people who die as a result of Republican policies and Trump's presidency who would've had a much higher chance of survival had a Democrat been in office.

That is reality

edited 3rd May '17 9:52:18 PM by Lightysnake

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186644: May 3rd 2017 at 9:52:13 PM

That does not give him the right to claim 'progressive' as his own personal title to dole out as he wishes. And 'establishment' Dems are still capable of being progressive. John Lewis is as establishment as you get, and he's an unashamed progressive.

Depends on who you ask.

I mean Sanders even called Obama a progressive. I disagree with him but that's a thing that happened.

When I say Establishment Dems, I'm usually talking about centrist and conservative Dems who by definition can't be progressive.

You have that blurry line where you have these politicians who are progressive in almost all ways but just won't fight corporate influence.

And a guy who got his skull caved in for it once upon a time. Tom Perez is 'establishment.' He's also a progressive with a record that puts Sanders' own to shame.

I'd like for Tom Perez to start fighting corporate influence within the party.

edited 3rd May '17 9:54:04 PM by MadSkillz

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#186645: May 3rd 2017 at 9:52:44 PM

I think the danger is less that Trump lacks a Tywin and more that he does have a Littlefinger in Bannon.

[up] why "by definition" can't a centrist be progressive?

edited 3rd May '17 9:53:42 PM by sgamer82

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186646: May 3rd 2017 at 9:53:18 PM

[up][up]So that's all "progressivism" is defined by for you? Anti-corporatism and that's it?

edited 3rd May '17 9:54:58 PM by LSBK

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#186647: May 3rd 2017 at 9:54:45 PM

I echo all of what Lightysnake said. Trump is a wannabe fascist and the implication that "if we just surrounded him with better people" he would be a good president is ludicrous. Because after all, that's the rub Mad—you didn't say he'd be a better president if we removed the likes of Bannon (a point that can be reasonably argued) you said he'd be a good president, which is ludicrous. The only way Donald Trump would ever be a good president would be if he had his brain removed and replaced with someone else's.

But since you're the one who said it, let's hear it Mad—let's hear about what Democrat could magically turn Trump into a good president by getting his ear. Who do you have in mind? How would they go about doing it? What policies do you think they could get the rabid baboon in the White House to implement that would benefit minorities or the poor?

@Ambar You're going to have to learn how to deal with this but the Progressive Caucus (the official progressive group) was started by Bernie Sanders and is headed by Sanders' man, Keith Ellison.

There's no escaping it. He and his cohort represent most of the progressive congressmen in the US. That is how it is in America. Sanders isn't some out of nowhere politician. He's been quite influential for a while. It's just a lot more visible now (and also a lot more powerful).

You may not like it and he may not be your type of progressive leader, but it is what it is.

...Says the girl who was arguing for her right to question whether others were "really" as leftist as they claim to be a few pages back. Who has again, and again, and again questioned the liberal credentials of Obama, Clinton, and anyone else who isn't a member of the goddamn Unicorn Brigade.

I don't have to learn to live with anything, and I don't give a damn what Sanders calls his caucus. He does not get to claim that term.

Oh and way to insult Keith Ellison. Apparently his own record and his list of accomplishments don't matter because he's "Sanders' man". His achievements should all be what, laid at the feet of Saint Bernie? To hell with that noise.

[up]Yes. That's the trumpet she blows in every thread she shows up in to talk about progressivism—pushing some version of reality where "Sanders marched with MLK" makes him an outsider, but Jon freaking Lewis is a member of "The Establishment" in the process. I personally can't even begin to wrap my head around it.

edited 3rd May '17 9:58:13 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#186648: May 3rd 2017 at 9:55:26 PM

When I say Establishment Dems, I'm usually talking about centrist and conservative Dems who by definition can't be progressive.

so, you're just shifting the goalposts? What makes an 'establishment' Dem incapable of being a progressive?

And Obama was progressive on a number of issues.

When Tom Perez starts to fight corporate influence within the party, I'll start thinking of him as a progressive.

And yet again you shift the goalposts. You're basically saying "Look, all the work Perez spent his life on? Fighting for workers, for civil rights, for economic justice and for society's most vulnerable? That doesn't matter. Unless he fights for my pet cause, he's not progressive." You may want to look up Perez's actual record with corporate influence. Hint: They hated him when he was labor secretary.

You are amply demonstrating why this faction if leftism has no real power and how it resembles the far right: utter intransigence. Holding titles out as a badge of honor and withholding them should you stray on a personally important issue. The fact that Tom Perez is, by any standard, super progressive and has constantly shown it through his actions matters less than he isn't willing to tell bankers to go jump into a volcano when head of the DNC where the demands and rigors of his job are possibly a bit more difficult than an overly-moralizing senator from Vermont's own.

edited 3rd May '17 9:57:51 PM by Lightysnake

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186649: May 3rd 2017 at 9:56:31 PM

Don't forget that Joffrey triggered a civil war that screwed the Seven Kingdoms just to avoid looking weak.

Recall that Trump signed off on a raid with...mixed results to put it lightly just because Mattis told him Obama was too chicken to sign off on it.

[up]"Progressive" according to that definition seems a lot more like "anti-corporation", "anti-bank", and "anti-Wall Street".

edited 3rd May '17 10:06:13 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186650: May 3rd 2017 at 9:57:25 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.

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