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MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186551: May 3rd 2017 at 4:29:27 PM

Then he's wrong. The problem is, he's repeating things he either knows or should know to be false and isn't looking into it to keep his narrative going

Depends on who you go to for information. Fighteer brought an economist up. I can bring up the Economic Policy Institute up which disagrees with those ideas.

I'm not disagreeing with what's being said btw. I'm still figuring it out which is which.

But besides jobs, there is still a lot of stuff in NAFTA that's actively bad like protecting trans-national corporations from national labor and environmental laws. I mean it did make it easier to exploit and bully workers in America and Mexico.

Again, Mad Skillz, those effects on Mexican workers and whatnot were political, not economic. They had nothing to do with the terms of NAFTA itself.

Fair enough but I don't think they should be dichotimized. They're weld to each other imo.

edited 3rd May '17 4:38:10 PM by MadSkillz

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#186552: May 3rd 2017 at 4:33:42 PM

Has anyone asked Mexico what they think of NAFTA? Since a lot of it directly affects them.

edited 3rd May '17 4:34:50 PM by megaeliz

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186553: May 3rd 2017 at 4:35:32 PM

@mega Depends on which sector of the population you want to ask. And whether you want to ask Mexico the nation or Mexico the people. Their interests do not always align. Just like America's interests doesn't always align with our people's interest.

edited 3rd May '17 4:36:30 PM by MadSkillz

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#186554: May 3rd 2017 at 4:37:33 PM

I guess I'm saying, what affects did NAFTA have on Mexico as a country? I really don't know that much about NAFTA in general, except for the basics.

edited 3rd May '17 4:39:52 PM by megaeliz

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#186555: May 3rd 2017 at 4:41:16 PM

Let's ask the question from a different angle: had NAFTA not been passed, would there now be significantly more (or better) American jobs? The answer, as far as I can tell, is no. And MadSkillz, while the impacts on Mexican workers are not trivial, they also have nothing to do inherently with whether NAFTA is beneficial to the United States, which is the point of the rhetoric of Trump and Sanders.

The quality of American blue-collar jobs has been declining since the 1970s. The proximate causes are:

  • Technology increasing productivity such that fewer laborers are needed to produce a given quantity of goods.
  • The failure of redistributive policies such as welfare and minimum wages to keep up with changes in GDP.
  • The reversal of many protections for workers and unions under Republican governments.
  • The globalization of finance allowing wealthy businesses and individuals to hide income from taxation.
  • The dismantling of U.S. macroeconomic policies centered around the industrialization of developing nations, allowing those nations to participate in the global economy and therefore buy U.S. goods.
  • China's emergence as a cheap global manufacturer.

edited 3rd May '17 4:45:30 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#186556: May 3rd 2017 at 4:42:25 PM

"House to vote Thursday on healthcare as Trump presses Republican ranks" - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-healthcare-idUSKBN17Z1LH

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186557: May 3rd 2017 at 4:47:32 PM

@mega However much damage one wants to assign to the US because of NAFTA, it was much worse in Mexico. It crippled the country.

This was from the New York Times:

Nafta has cut a path of destruction through Mexico. Since the agreement went into force in 1994, the country’s annual per capita growth flat-lined to an average of just 1.2 percent — one of the lowest in the hemisphere. Its real wage has declined and unemployment is up.

As heavily subsidized U.S. corn and other staples poured into Mexico, producer prices dropped and small farmers found themselves unable to make a living. Some two million have been forced to leave their farms since Nafta. At the same time, consumer food prices rose, notably the cost of the omnipresent tortilla.

As a result, 20 million Mexicans live in “food poverty”. Twenty-five percent of the population does not have access to basic food and one-fifth of Mexican children suffer from malnutrition. Transnational industrial corridors in rural areas have contaminated rivers and sickened the population and typically, women bear the heaviest impact.

Not all of Mexico’s problems can be laid at Nafta’s doorstep. But many have a direct causal link. The agreement drastically restructured Mexico’s economy and closed off other development paths by prohibiting protective tariffs, support for strategic sectors and financial controls.

Nafta’s failure in Mexico has a direct impact on the United States. Although it has declined recently, jobless Mexicans migrated to the United States at an unprecedented rate of half a million a year after Nafta.

Workers in both countries lose when companies move, when companies threaten to move as leverage in negotiations, and when nations like Mexico lower labor rights and environmental enforcement to attract investment.

Farmers lose when transnational corporations take over the land they supported their families on for generations. Consumers lose with the imposition of a food production model heavy on chemical use, corporate concentration, genetically modified seed and processed foods. Border communities lose when lower environmental standards for investors affect shared ecosystems.

The increase in people living in poverty feeds organized crime recruitment and the breakdown of communities. Increased border activity facilitates smuggling arms and illegal substances.

There's a reason why Bill Clinton militarized the border when he signed NAFTA. He knew the immigration wave that was coming as a result.

edited 3rd May '17 4:49:36 PM by MadSkillz

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#186558: May 3rd 2017 at 4:51:13 PM

[up][up] Hopefully, they have to pull it because they lose votes during the procedures.

Heck, maybe Chuck Schumer should threaten to Shut Down the Government if it looks like they'll vote for it. It'd make Trump furious, but since becoming President, when has he been happy?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#186559: May 3rd 2017 at 4:51:29 PM

Man that goalpost moved so fast I think it broke the sound barrier.

Mad it doesn't matter what NAFTA did to Mexico, because that's completely irelivent to a discussion of if it had a negative impact on US manufacturing jobs and if Sanders is full of crap to act as if it did.

Plus this not like Sanders gives a dam about people in Mexico, he doesn't give much fo a dam about Americans outside of Vermont, so the idea that he'd care about Mexican jobs is absurd.

Stop dodging the question Mad, or at least dodge it in a way that's not so painfully obvious.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186560: May 3rd 2017 at 4:55:18 PM

Man that goalpost moved so fast I think it broke the sound barrier.

Mad it doesn't matter what NAFTA did to Mexico, because that's completely irelivent to a discussion of if it had a negative impact on US manufacturing jobs and if Sanders is full of crap to act as if it did.

Plus this not like Sanders gives a dam about people in Mexico, he doesn't give much fo a dam about Americans outside of Vermont, so the idea that he'd care about Mexican jobs is absurd. Stop dodging the question Mad, or at least dodge it in a way that's not so painfully obvious.

But that's not where I'm trying to take the argument.

I'm seeing the idea being espoused that NAFTA isn't so bad and I'm bringing up that well no, it actually is kinda bad even if what Fighteer is saying true.

It's not moving the goal posts because I'm playing in a different soccer field.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186561: May 3rd 2017 at 4:55:58 PM

I take it that opinions on Sanders have soured some more sense I pieced out of here for awhile? Did anything new come to light about him, or is he just kind of the new Ralph Nader?

edited 3rd May '17 5:43:52 PM by LSBK

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#186562: May 3rd 2017 at 4:58:28 PM

@LSBK: Ralph Nader had the good grace to admit he failed and shuffle off to a quiet corner, and after he lost never pretended he was the future of the party he split from.

edited 3rd May '17 4:58:48 PM by ViperMagnum357

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#186563: May 3rd 2017 at 5:00:23 PM

I just need to lay out the problems here:

Places like rural Appalachia and the rural south are some of the poorest areas in our country. People used to work for one big industry, but when the industry left, the jobs left as well. Many of these places have poor infrastructure and under-educated citizenry as well.

So, basically what we need to do is improve education and infrastructure to incentivize companies to move there, and diversify there economies, so it is not just based around one industry.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#186564: May 3rd 2017 at 5:01:07 PM

@LSBK: With interest in the various other explanations for why the "perfect" presidential candidate lost waning thanks to the short attention span of the public, Sanders is the current punching bag of the centrist media. There's also the matter of him likely being a significant factor in the 2020 primaries even if he doesn't run (and hopefully he won't given his age). Attacks on Warren are also ratcheting up, and many of the forumgoers now despise her as well for the exact same reasons as Sanders. Keith Ellison (and various others associated with Sanders) are also getting hit, though not as badly since he's not really considered a contender for the 2020 nomination.

In other words, it's internal party politics spilling over into the base and into their media allies.

edited 3rd May '17 5:17:02 PM by CaptainCapsase

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186565: May 3rd 2017 at 5:03:33 PM

To be fair, I'm also a citizen of Mexico that also comes from a family of rancheros so I cannot talk about NAFTA without disdain for what it did to parts of my family that lived in Mexico.

edited 3rd May '17 5:05:36 PM by MadSkillz

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#186566: May 3rd 2017 at 5:15:18 PM

The movie group I'm in is watching a US politics-themed movie right now (it started 15 minutes ago). It's called My Fellow Americans.

Here's the plot:

Ex-presidents Kramer (Jack Lemmon) and Douglas (James Garner) have hated each other for years. But when the current administration of President Haney (Dan Aykroyd) — Kramer's former vice president — tries blaming a string of kickbacks from a defense contractor on the two former presidents, they band together. With Haney's goons trying to kill them, they set out across the country to try and clear their reputations. In the process, they see a side of America they never knew before.

If anyone wants to stop inside and join us, we're at https://cytu.be/r/TroperCoven

I hope it's okay to bring that up. It's American politics related. If not, I'm sorry; please let me know.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186567: May 3rd 2017 at 5:15:20 PM

Attacks on Warren are also ratcheting up, and many of the forumgoers now despise her as well for the exact same reasons as Sanders.

We essentially have 4 different factions pretending to be 2 parties.

The Progressives (unofficially headed by Sanders), Establishment Dems(Obama/Clinton Wing), Tuesday Republicans(John Mc Cain and his men) and the Tea Party(Rand Paul's wing).

edited 3rd May '17 5:15:48 PM by MadSkillz

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#186568: May 3rd 2017 at 5:15:44 PM

Relevant to the current discussion because it talks about positive stuff that happened for Mexican-American relations as a result of NAFTA...and how Donald's bluster might screw it up. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/05/mexicos-revenge/521451/

Summary version: Open economic activity along the border brought the border towns close together and improved relations with Mexico greatly (that and the end of the Cold War making the US anticommunism no longer an issue). Mexico also looked to the US because they were leery of the growing overtures made by China. If US-Mexico relations do go sour, China is going to look like a much better business deal and populist Mexican politicians are already making lots of scowly faces at the US.

edited 3rd May '17 5:23:41 PM by Elle

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#186569: May 3rd 2017 at 5:16:17 PM

If the Republicans do pass their "repeal and replace" bill, what do you think will happen overall? Or piece-wise, both good and bad?

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#186570: May 3rd 2017 at 5:16:57 PM

Mad, what would you consider Trump and those like him to be? A faction or something totally different?

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#186571: May 3rd 2017 at 5:17:29 PM

[up]x7 And in the spirit of "explanations for why Hillary lost", let me share with you all this article: 538 (part of their "The Real Story Of 2016" series): The Comey Letter Probably Cost Clinton The Election. The series is an attempt to explain which factors caused the election results and an analysis of how the media treated the election, this article in particular presents the idea that Comey's letter (and the way the media reacted to it) was a big factor, having costed her between 1% and 3% and ultimately flipping PA, MI, WI and maybe even FL, NE-2, AZ, and NC.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#186572: May 3rd 2017 at 5:19:08 PM

[up] Comey's letter may have been the tipping point, but I recall seeing from Septimus a semi-official analysis that concluded it was indeed Obama voters defecting to Trump that sealed the deal.

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#186573: May 3rd 2017 at 5:21:16 PM

It's been awhile so I forget, but I thought the big thing was less that trump swiped voters and more that voting was down across the board in trump's favor?

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#186574: May 3rd 2017 at 5:22:07 PM

[up] Not really, at least according to the analysis Septimus posted that was about 1/3 of the problem, the other 2/3rds were the defection of former Obama voters.

edited 3rd May '17 5:22:23 PM by CaptainCapsase

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#186575: May 3rd 2017 at 5:22:38 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah. That's what I was trying to say. I just didn't remember the term "tipping point".

edited 3rd May '17 5:23:00 PM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV

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