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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#186201: May 2nd 2017 at 9:59:31 AM

@physicalstamina; no it was not soley based at politicians. If you want you can read the summary here: https://www.resistanceschool.com/summary-session-two/

edited 2nd May '17 10:03:24 AM by megaeliz

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#186202: May 2nd 2017 at 10:01:44 AM

They need to stop doing this. Let all the stoner bros and the coal miners find out what voting for Trump (or Johnson or Stein) has accomplished for them.

I swear, the Dems are like the parents of an ignorant bully so much of the time, trying to protect their kid from the consequences of his actions, while only teaching him to be worse. At some point they need to stand back and let him burn for his actions.

I have to admit, I heartily dislike this attitude. The Democrats should not abandon good policy in order to score political points. If the problem is that certain voters don't realize (or don't believe) that Democratic policies are good for them, then the focus should be on informing and convincing them, not saying "screw it" and abandoning those policies.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#186203: May 2nd 2017 at 10:07:08 AM

[up] This. Plus, if the Democrats don't try to stop bad things from happening, then their base will suffer just as bad as the Non-Democratic Base. And people will wonder why they haven't tried to do anything to save them from suffering, and may stay home or vote 3rd Party.

Democrats actually beating the Majority Party and getting their agenda done will improve their standing with their Base, and might help them get them to vote in 2018 and 2020.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#186204: May 2nd 2017 at 10:20:09 AM

Only if they get credit for it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#186205: May 2nd 2017 at 10:21:47 AM

the Republicans absolutely will try to spin it as entirely the Democrats' fault, and the WWC will absolutely buy that.

See not everyone agrees with this, the right wing propaganda machine is powerful, incredibly so, but even it has its limits. It can spin worsening employment data but it can't spin a person loosing their own job. There's a limit to what they will but, because a lot of thease voters aren't actually attached to the Republican Party, they're just insanely low information, as if they know who the president is and that's it, they ascribe to him the blame and credit for everything.

Obama got blamed for 6 years fo Republican obstructionism because he was the president and people assumed that that meant he had total control over the government.

A disturbing number of people will flip their belife now that Trump is in charge but not all of them will, I doubt even a majority will. There are a lot of low information voters out there who will credit any gains int heir life to Trump and nay loses in their life to Trump. If they're allowed to suffer the consequences of their actions then they may well learn.

Now I will admit that my argument here is partially motivated by a desire to see people take responsibility for their actions, it's motivated in part by spite and a desire to see those who voted for Trump get what they asked for, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#186206: May 2nd 2017 at 10:24:10 AM

I feel like one of the underlying causes of the constant 'left vs center' arguments here is that there's some miscommunication on where everyone stands (or thinks they stand) politically. I'd like to clear this up, and while this is admittedly a childish and simplistic method of measuring political views, I think it's fitting for the childish and simplistic back-and-forth that this argument constantly brings up. The purpose of this is not to alienate anyone, but to foster understanding so that any future renditions of this argument are more civil. On a scale of 1 to 100, place where you think you are in your next post, politically, with 1 being very, very Left, 100 being very, very Right, and 50 being very, very Center, not forgetting any policy caveats that you should clarify afterwards.

I'll go first: I see myself as about a 35; very Left socially, but slightly more Center-Left on economic issues.

edited 2nd May '17 10:26:21 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186207: May 2nd 2017 at 10:30:40 AM

I mean, "don't help people" is basically the same as arguing for letting Trump get into office in the first place, just so thinks can suck so much "true progressives" can get into office.

Both arguments ignore that a lot more people than the ones actually voting for Trump are going to be hurt by it. Either that or it's "justifiable" or "for the greater good", of which I can't help but not the hypocrisy.

edited 2nd May '17 10:33:45 AM by LSBK

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#186208: May 2nd 2017 at 10:41:51 AM

[up][up][up]What I suspect will happen is that their job loss will be rationalised as "the Dems don't want to work with Trump to make the American economy great again!".

A lot of economically anxious WWC people had zero clue that the Affordable Care Act is Obamacare.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#186209: May 2nd 2017 at 10:42:15 AM

I think I definitely fall center-left. I've always believed extremism in any side is risky or dangerous, so stuff like the Bernie Bros, Tea Party, and Religious Right will never sit right with me. Groups like The first two who seem more concerned with upending the system are legitimately more dangerous to me than moderates maintaining the status quo.

There's a reason most of my less joking mockery is reserved for the "OTHER SIDE BAD!!!" types.

[down] If it helps I suppose, for me I skew liberal on most social issues, centrist to moderate in economics, and value competence in my government officials over ideology.

edited 2nd May '17 10:47:11 AM by sgamer82

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#186210: May 2nd 2017 at 10:43:32 AM

[up][up][up][up]

My problem is I don't have a reference point here.

I mean, I'm very very left compared to everyone I meet on a daily basis and live near.

But I don't know where that puts me with everyone else.

edited 2nd May '17 10:44:13 AM by Matues

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#186211: May 2nd 2017 at 10:46:21 AM

[up]X4 It's not "don't help people" that I'm arguing for, it's "don't help when it's only low information Trump voters that would benefit". If something is being done that would hurt coal miners and urban black youths than yes we fight it tooth and nail, but I fail to see why when it's just the coal miners being hurt we should help them (unless you're an actual rep for an area with coal miner in it, then they're your constituents and you shodul help them for that reason) instead of focusing our limited resources on the fights where our own are at threat.

What I suspect will happen is that their job loss will be rationalised as "the Dems don't want to work with Trump to make the American economy great again!".

And what I'm saying is that you're wrong. They don't care about congress, they don't care about the Democrtas, they're not involved enough in politics to understand that Trump needs to work with democrats or doesn't. All they see is Trump in the White House and their lives failing to improve. Congress, the Supreme Court, local officals, none of that us understood by them. All they get is "Trump now in charge, if life good Trump good, if life bad Trump bad".

edited 2nd May '17 10:49:20 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#186212: May 2nd 2017 at 10:46:47 AM

I'm with Matues, at least in terms of not knowing where exactly I fall. I don't have a single conservative view, but I'm not calling for the death of every millionaire in the world, which causes some people to label me as center-left.

I consider myself a liberal, but I'm not an extremist, which puts me in the position of being called "not a real progressive".

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186213: May 2nd 2017 at 10:57:36 AM

I have no idea where I fall on the scale either. I've never really tried to label myself.

I guess I'm pretty conservative in a lot of respects. The consequence of growing up in a well-to-do conservative family.

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#186214: May 2nd 2017 at 11:00:43 AM

The thing for me is that I place a high value on being able to go about your life and live however you like as long as you aren't harming anyone. My occasionally mentioned brother, who I credit for teaching me this mindset, falls conservative because he feels that interference from the federal government hampers that ideal. I've since come to side liberal because it's become increasingly clear that such interference seems like the only way it can happen.

I certainly can't look at the current GOP and call them a party of tolerance and live & let live.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186215: May 2nd 2017 at 11:01:54 AM

[up] Granted, part of it is No True Scotsman for me. I don't consider the GOP to be a true conservative party. It is an actively regressive reactionary one.

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#186216: May 2nd 2017 at 11:02:46 AM

Maybe it would help to add a second dimention to the whole left right buisness. Take that horizontal Left/Right line and add a verical axis: this is how much power you think the government should have. Label the bottom libertarian and the top authoritarian.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186217: May 2nd 2017 at 11:07:55 AM

It's not "don't help people" that I'm arguing for, it's "don't help when it's only low information Trump voters that would benefit". If something is being done that would hurt coal miners and urban black youths than yes we fight it tooth and nail, but I fail to see why when it's just the coal miners being hurt we should help them (unless you're an actual rep for an area with coal miner in it, then they're your constituents and you shodul help them for that reason) instead of focusing our limited resources on the fights where our own are at threat.

Because Congress isn't just about helping your own constituents it's about improving things nationally. Or that the minority of coal miners would also get swept up in it. Or that those like their children who can't vote would also get swept up in it. Or that such things can often have unintended consequences.

And also that, even without trying to moral high-ground anything, I fail to see how not helping accomplishes any good in the current situation.

The Dems need to get better at actually taking credit for the things they do in these places, not just stop help, assuming these same low-info people are going to magically change their opinions.

One takes actually the effort, the other is spite trying to masquerade as if it would actually accomplish anything.

Edit: That said, I'm not talking about putting these people on necessarily equal footing.

edited 2nd May '17 11:12:26 AM by LSBK

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186218: May 2nd 2017 at 11:16:08 AM

That said, there is no way in hell Democratic politicians should even consider throwing minorities under the bus while chasing after WWC voters.

edited 2nd May '17 11:16:49 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#186219: May 2nd 2017 at 11:16:45 AM

Last time I took a political compass test, it said I was center right and almost perfectly in the middle of the authority/liberty axis.

I'm mostly socially conservative and support a militaristic foreign policy; but I prefer the DNC's immigration and economics.

In other words, I'm the opposite of a libertarian.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#186220: May 2nd 2017 at 11:19:03 AM

Then you add a third line for foreign policy, between interventionism and isolationism.

The ideology cube is something I'm pushing big these days.

I'll admit that I'm ecnenomically left wing (to the point of wanting nationalisation fo certain things), socially left wing, in favour fo state integration to protect liberties and the economy and a strong interventionist.

I'm a globalist social democrat. At least the social democrat part is what it said on my Labour party meambership card before I chopped it in two out of anger at the Labour Party for voting for Brexit.

[up] The political compass test is built to bring about certain results, it can't be trusted.

One takes actually the effort, the other is spite trying to masquerade as if it would actually accomplish anything.

I've been very open about my spite thank you very much, no masquerade here. tongue Nah, you're right, the Dems need their own information network that gets around cable news, that more than anything is the grassroots movement that is needed.

edited 2nd May '17 11:21:43 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#186221: May 2nd 2017 at 11:19:52 AM

It's not "don't help people" that I'm arguing for, it's "don't help when it's only low information Trump voters that would benefit".
"Low-information Trump voters" are a subset of "people", so yes, you're literally arguing to not help people.

This is crap. It may be sound political strategy, but it fails the "being a decent human being" test.

The government's job is to work for the benefit of its citizens. Saying that the Democrats should throw Trump voters under the bus because it's not like they're going to vote Democrat anyway is morally repugnant.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#186222: May 2nd 2017 at 11:20:18 AM

Just want to point out that it's more than Left and Right.

edited 2nd May '17 11:27:13 AM by megaeliz

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#186223: May 2nd 2017 at 11:20:22 AM

[up]x6 You'd probably need at least 4 dimensions. My suggestion would be: involved/absent Government, socially progressive/neutral/regressive, free market/protectionism and internationalist/isolationist.

[up][up][up][nja]

[up][up]I'm with you and LSBK there, it's not OK with me to throw people under the bus just because they vote for the other guys.

[up]Just don't read their "analysis", they've gone off the deep end.

edited 2nd May '17 11:24:29 AM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186224: May 2nd 2017 at 11:22:24 AM

That said, there is no way in hell Democratic politicians should even consider throwing minorities under the bus while chasing after WWC voters.

No one, at least not here, has been saying that. "We should help them too" doesn't mean "We should only help them and forget about everyone else."

I understand there have been some rumblings about that elsewhere, and it's troubling and I disagree with it, but that's not the point being made here.

edited 2nd May '17 11:25:22 AM by LSBK

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor

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