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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

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If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186126: May 1st 2017 at 11:07:04 PM

I'm not seeing the hypocrisy; Ambar didn't tell you what you could believe or whether you're a progressive or not.

And as for whose the authority on the manner, I'd assume that would be the mods. If this happens often I'm kind of surprised they haven't shut stuff like this down.

edited 1st May '17 11:07:51 PM by LSBK

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#186127: May 1st 2017 at 11:09:47 PM

Maybe this could be taken to PM's? It's not that relevant to the topic and seems more between you two than anything else.

Shadow?
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#186128: May 1st 2017 at 11:10:15 PM

That said my main goal was trying to explain that Center-left to Center-Right falls under the umbrella of centrists. Just pointing that a duck is a duck.

Center-left also falls under the umbrella of Left. They're overlapping umbrellas.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186129: May 1st 2017 at 11:16:17 PM

Center-left also falls under the umbrella of Left. They're overlapping umbrellas.

I actually put this in my previous post but I erased it.

But originally, I said that people on the center-left can identify as members of left since they do operate on the line between the two.

I'm not seeing the hypocrisy; Ambar didn't tell you what you could believe or whether you're a progressive or not.

"I am the true progressive and everyone else is a neoliberal shill."

"I want to tell people who disagree with me to fuck themselves."

I mean that's not how I think but that's what he's telling me how I think.

To sum it up, I was questioning someone telling me that I can't tell people what they are/think while he tells me what I think.

Besides if you follow Ambar's line all the way through then Mello calling himself a progressive would be okay.

Maybe this could be taken to PM's? It's not that relevant to the topic and seems more between you two than anything else.

I got no beef with Ambar. Ambar is just very opposed to my worldview which is fair.

If you—or anyone else—is going to play this game, then there is no point in having a conversation. We cannot discuss our political positions if other people think that they can tell us what those positions "really are".

One more thing, Ambar, I wasn't telling anyone what their positions are. I was operating based on what he said what his positions are and assigning a label to it.

edited 1st May '17 11:25:14 PM by MadSkillz

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#186130: May 1st 2017 at 11:25:35 PM

Nothing hypocritical about this statement. Tell me more about what I believe

I reiterate "Nothing hypocritical about this statement. Tell me more about what I believe."

The problem here Mad, is that I didn't tell you what you believe. I told you what you were doing. You told Fox that he was not a member of the left, that he was a centrist with neoliberal positions. That's literally what you said. Words have meanings.

You've done it before, responding to disagreement with "I like it, but then again, I'm a progressive", a line which is either a) meant to smear everyone else's progressive credentials or b) evidence that you don't know how conversations work and what the takeaway from your words will be. Since you're not stupid, I'm going to assume it's the former.

Don't want to be called out for saying this shit? Stop saying it.

You can identify as whatever you want but that doesn't mean I get to agree with it. I know people who are members of the alt-right who think of themselves as the real progressives. I can call bullshit on that. I'm being purposefully hyperbolic to point out the silliness. Words still have to mean something.

Who died and made you the arbiter of what constitutes progressive, or leftism? You want to keep accusing Obama and Clinton and Macron and every other leftist politician worldwide of being a centrist and a neoliberal (or a secret conservative)? Fine. More power to you. But you don't get to do it to members of the forum or there's no point in having a debate. Because sooner or later someone is going to turn it around and shred your progressive credentials and then the entire forum will degenerate into a brawl about what is or is not progressivism.

I don't really want the thread to go there. I don't imagine anyone else wants the thread to go there. But the only way to ensure it doesn't is for everyone to leave the credentials of everyone else in the thread the Hell alone.

Who is the authority on this?

The mods. And since one of the rules is no goddamn personal attacks and telling someone that their core beliefs are different from what they think they are is a goddamn personal attack, you should stop doing it. It also falls under the "changing the discussion from topic to troper" rules. Tactical Fox is not the topic of this thread. So how about we all follow the rules and return to discussing American politics, aight?

Besides if you follow Ambar's line all the way through then Mello calling himself a progressive would be okay.

Heath Mello is not a member of this goddamn forum. Neither are any of the people you criticize which is why while your criticisms of Obama are, in my opinion, unfounded and nonsensical, I've never said they violated the rules.

Tactical Fox is not the topic of the thread. I am not the topic of the thread. You are not the topic of the thread. So once again—let's stop trying to claim the mantle of progressivism for ourselves, and just talk about the topic of the thread.

edited 1st May '17 11:28:06 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186131: May 1st 2017 at 11:30:12 PM

[up]

Heath Mello is not a member of this goddamn forum.

Man, it'd be hilarious if it turns out that Mello is a troper.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186132: May 1st 2017 at 11:34:46 PM

The problem here Mad, is that I didn't tell you what you believe. I told you what you were doing. You told Fox that he was not a member of the left, that he was a centrist with neoliberal positions. That's literally what you said. Words have meanings.

"I am the true progressive and everyone else is a neoliberal shill."

"I want to tell people who disagree with me to fuck themselves."

I'm not doing either of these things. And I didn't say he had neoliberal positions.

You've done it before, responding to disagreement with "I like it, but then again, I'm a progressive", a line which is either a) meant to smear everyone else's progressive credentials or b) evidence that you don't know how conversations work and what the takeaway from your words will be. Since you're not stupid, I'm going to assume it's the former.

Don't remember that.

The mods. And since one of the rules is no goddamn personal attacks and telling someone that their core beliefs are different from what they think they are is a goddamn personal attack, you should stop doing it. It also falls under the "changing the discussion from topic to troper" rules. Tactical Fox is not the topic of this thread. So how about we all follow the rules and return to discussing American politics, aight?

I wasn't challenging their core beliefs. I re-labeled him. Calling someone a centrist isn't an insult just like calling someone a leftist or rightwing isn't an insult.

I do admit that I was being condescending at points but I was aggravated by the shade thrown at some us.

But you are kinda guilty here too since this is a line of discussion that you wanted to get into. You could've just pm'd me.

edited 2nd May '17 12:26:03 AM by MadSkillz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186133: May 1st 2017 at 11:36:18 PM

So I stumbled across this not too long ago...

According to the Commerce Secretary, the Syria missile strikes were "after-dinner entertainment" at Mar-a-lago.

Speaking at the Milken Institute Global Conference on Monday, Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross recalled the scene at Mar-a-Lago on April 6, when the summit with Chinese President Xi Jinping was interrupted by the strike on Syria.

“Just as dessert was being served, the president explained to Mr. Xi he had something he wanted to tell him, which was the launching of 59 missiles into Syria,” Ross said. “It was in lieu of after-dinner entertainment.”

As the crowd laughed, Ross added: “The thing was, it didn’t cost the president anything to have that entertainment.”

Wilbur Ross and everyone who laughed at that "joke" can go fuck themselves.

edited 1st May '17 11:37:36 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186134: May 1st 2017 at 11:42:34 PM

Tactical Fox is not the topic of the thread. I am not the topic of the thread. You are not the topic of the thread. So once again—let's stop trying to claim the mantle of progressivism for ourselves, and just talk about the topic of the thread.

Let's do it then.

Anyways something that I'm not seeing many places report but Puerto Rico is going through a strike:

Here.

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — Hundreds of protesters blocked roads in Puerto Rico's capital Monday as May Day demonstrators angered by a decade-long economic crisis marched against looming austerity measures and demanded an audit to identify those responsible for running up a $70 billion public debt load.

Demonstrators wearing black T-shirts banged large wooden placards painted with a black Puerto Rican flag against the ground as they headed toward the U.S. territory's financial center.

"Ricky is selling the island!" they yelled in reference to Gov. Ricardo Rossello, whose administration is expected to announce soon whether it has reached a deal with bondholders to restructure a portion of the debt or embrace a bankruptcy-like process.

The protests and strike affected services at Puerto Rico's largest public hospital, paralyzed the bus system and forced many businesses to close. Demonstrators also briefly blocked traffic near San Juan's international airport, prompting some travelers to walk along the highway dragging suitcases.

Any Puerto Ricans know what the deal is?

edited 2nd May '17 12:13:14 AM by MadSkillz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186135: May 1st 2017 at 11:45:40 PM

[up] Disheartening to see that nothing has really improved for Puerto Rico since the Last Week Tonight segment covering it aired.

Puerto Rico is more or less what happens when you go overboard with deregulation (more like the regulations never applying in the first place since it's a United States territory and not a state) and lower taxes to attract businessmen.

And then the hedge funds moved on them.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186136: May 2nd 2017 at 12:02:44 AM

Didn't realize Puerto Rico was that bad. I always assumed it was pretty liberal.

edited 2nd May '17 12:21:27 AM by MadSkillz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186137: May 2nd 2017 at 12:07:47 AM

[up] It's less to do with being liberal or conservative and everything to do with the fact that they are a United States territory and not a state. The laws aren't the same for Puerto Rico as a result. There's fewer regulations meaning fewer protections. And it's a territory, which makes it harder for them to get their voices heard in D.C.

Heck, as the Last Week Tonight segment shows, a lot of people apparently do not realize that Puerto Ricans are American citizens. I do not believe this has changed much.

edited 2nd May '17 12:09:22 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186138: May 2nd 2017 at 12:10:32 AM

Who is in charge of creating new regulations? Can the US just choose to make regulation laws for them or do they have to vote them in? Or does the Puerto Rican government have unilateral control over it?

Heck, as the Last Week Tonight segment shows, a lot of people apparently do not realize that Puerto Ricans are American citizens. I do not believe this has changed much.

Bet you can rally a quarter of the country to let Puerto Rico become its own country if you tell them that it'd tear a couple million Hispanics from the US.

edited 2nd May '17 12:11:47 AM by MadSkillz

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#186139: May 2nd 2017 at 12:11:23 AM

[up][up] From what I recall of Trump's recent comments, he certainly doesn't seem to.

Oh God! Natural light!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186140: May 2nd 2017 at 12:28:51 AM

[up][up] Federal laws apply to Puerto Rico. But because it's a territory, not all of the federal laws that apply in the states apply in Puerto Rico. Most noticably Puerto Rico cannot file for debt relief under Chapter 9. Bills have been introduced in the past in an attempt to change this, but they did not pass. It probably doesn't help that Puerto Rico's representative in Congress has no vote.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#186142: May 2nd 2017 at 1:19:54 AM

Are you trusting him to not turn it onto a somehow worse clusterfuck even if he remembers saying that five days from now?

"You can reply to this Message!"
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186143: May 2nd 2017 at 1:21:41 AM

I don't hence the conflict.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#186144: May 2nd 2017 at 1:22:53 AM

Conflict implies you'd possibly actually go with it.

tongue

Do I need to get my 'Using The Right For Your Agenda NEVER Works' Bouncy hammer? I call it Kurt.

edited 2nd May '17 1:23:55 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186145: May 2nd 2017 at 1:24:55 AM

Maybe we should wait until he actually presents something in writing before making any judgement calls.

That said, I'm gonna err on the side of "Trump is full of shit". It's worked for me so far.

This part stood out for me:

Trump's sentiments came the same day he met with leaders of the Independent Community Bankers of America, an advocacy group for small- and mid-market institutions.

Industry analyst Dick Bove believes that may not be a coincidence.

"He probably made a statement to them that they wanted to hear," Bove said. "In the last few weeks he has been heavily campaigning again, and I think this is just part of his campaign."

Whether anything will come of it legislatively is unclear.

"I just think he had a need to communicate, to connect again with community banks and say, 'Hey guys, we're on your side. We believe in you and maybe we should break up the big Wall Street banks,'" Bove added. "But I don't expect anything to come of it."

This is just more populist rhetoric as part of his headstart on the 2020 reelection campaign.

edited 2nd May '17 1:29:57 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#186146: May 2nd 2017 at 1:41:12 AM

He just listens to whoever was the last guy in the room. If they tell him he should break up the banks, he'll break up the banks.

But in the next few days, after talking to his close circle of "advisers," we'll hear that he's going to make the banks bigger than ever.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#186147: May 2nd 2017 at 1:45:32 AM

[up][up][up] Shouldn't it be named Paul?

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#186148: May 2nd 2017 at 1:49:34 AM

[up] Kurt works, too, actually.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#186149: May 2nd 2017 at 1:59:57 AM

[up] He got the Joke tongue

"You can reply to this Message!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186150: May 2nd 2017 at 2:00:04 AM

[up][up][up][up] They'll be Yuuge, beautiful banks! The bigliest ones!

In all seriousness that would be bad. That's way too close to a state-run economy for my taste. And that's not a good thing, unless you like the idea of your economy becoming a slowly decaying zombie *cough* China *cough*.

edited 2nd May '17 2:01:56 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised

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