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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186101: May 1st 2017 at 9:46:52 PM

At least the center is fully baked. The far right and far left are half-baked, if that.

Shifting analogies a bit:

The right is hellbent on fitting a square peg into a round hole. They refuse to acknowledge the reality that it just won't fit.

The center has a round peg that fits into the hole, but barely. As a result, the peg and the hole get damaged over time.

The left want to make a new round peg but don't have much in the way of woodcarving experience and previous attempts to make a new peg have ended in failure.

edited 1st May '17 9:50:02 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#186102: May 1st 2017 at 9:50:07 PM

The Warren headline is extremely misleading. Warren's actual quote is fairly reasonable. Parsing the sentence correctly, she did not say Obama and other politicians didn't understand the lived experience of ordinary people. She said that the national stats that the politicians like to use and bring out are no longer reflecting the situation "on the ground".

Did she have to namedrop Obama? Maybe not, but it would depend on what her interview was going on about. If they were talking about Obama just before the quote, it might've been a natural lead-in to this quote.

edited 1st May '17 9:50:37 PM by nightwyrm_zero

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186103: May 1st 2017 at 9:54:26 PM

A purity test? Is THAT what you're calling it? Militant Centrism? When I'm pretty liberal (well, more so center left, emphasis on left)? That's hilarious.

If you identify with the Center-left, Center-Center and Center-right, you would be a Centrist. They're what people call New Democrats.

I'm a pragmatic leftist. I operate in the real world and on realpolitik. Some of you might enjoy idealism and ideology, and that's fine, in moderation, but I don't. I only care about what's possible, both in terms of passing this shitshow we call a Congress AND how policy affects people's real lives, in a tangible way.

Yes, these are the centrist talking points. They say they're "pragmatic progressives".

C'mon. You have an ideology too. Everyone has an ideology.

So forgive me if I despise any divergence from reality considering the bullshit I have to put up with day-in-and day out, and keep it real.

What you mean to say is divergence of your version of reality.

Everyone's version of reality is different from one another.

Does that mean I can't be wrong? Absolutely not. That's why I look regularly at even conservative think tanks just as much as I do left leaning ones. Evaluate the evidence, make a decision, move on.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh on Warren, I can admit that, but that's because I know she knows better, that's what's even more frustrating.

Conservative and left-leaning but not left ones?

Hmmmm.tongue

edited 2nd May '17 12:04:57 AM by MadSkillz

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#186104: May 1st 2017 at 9:54:45 PM

[up][up] Leftists have ideas. Centrists have Policies.

Yes, these are the centrist talking points. They think they're "pragmatic progressives". C'mon. You have an ideology too, you're just pretending you don't.

I could literally make a gigantic list of all the roadblocks you'd encounter trying to enact Sanders agenda even WITH a cooperative Congress.

What you mean to say is divergence of your version of reality.

Considering I bring the receipts with reputable sources with experts deep knowledge of the issues, yes. Don't try and pull that false equivalency bullshit that the right tries to do when they get criticized for their partisanship and tribal mentality.

edited 1st May '17 9:58:59 PM by TacticalFox88

New Survey coming this weekend!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186105: May 1st 2017 at 10:01:11 PM

[up] The more I looked at Sanders' proposed agenda, the more I have come to think that getting it through Congress would be the easy part. Actually making it work would have been a Herculean feat.

Disgusted, but not surprised
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186106: May 1st 2017 at 10:02:44 PM

Awhile back I think Tobias said something along the lines of "Sanders would have had a better chance of winning but Hilary would make a much better President." I think I more or less align along that axis, not that it really matters at this point.

Edit: So hopefully next time we can get someone with some of his ump along with her sensibleness.

edited 1st May '17 10:04:46 PM by LSBK

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#186107: May 1st 2017 at 10:04:51 PM

Yeah, Clinton's out altogether and Sanders' supporters often have more relevance than the man himself seems to

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186108: May 1st 2017 at 10:05:56 PM

Considering I bring the receipts with reputable sources with experts deep knowledge of the issues, yes. Don't try and pull that false equivalency bullshit that the right tries to do when they get criticized for their partisanship and tribal mentality.

Depends on the issue and even reputable sources can disagree with each other. Sometimes vehemently. You're still bringing your worldview in when you decide who you agree with.

edited 2nd May '17 12:23:45 AM by MadSkillz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186109: May 1st 2017 at 10:10:27 PM

[up][up]

Sanders' supporters often have more relevance than the man himself seems to

That's probably for the best. Consider that one really weird week he had during that "unity tour". Tweeting a controversial article that namedropped Spencer, declaring he's not a Democrat but an Independent, and supporting Mello while snubbing Ossof (either would be questionable but not so bad but together...)

edited 1st May '17 10:11:39 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jasaiga Since: Jan, 2015
#186110: May 1st 2017 at 10:11:28 PM

Eh, I don't know why this is a big deal tbh. She'll vote for any remotely left-leaning legislation, and that's really all that matters.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#186111: May 1st 2017 at 10:15:32 PM

[up] Thread wise I get the impression the issue is that some people feel Warren is being misrepresented while others are believing the misrepresentation and turning on her for not being properly Left (tm).

edited 1st May '17 10:15:49 PM by sgamer82

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186112: May 1st 2017 at 10:18:19 PM

“The Republicans have clearly thrown their lot in with the rich and the powerful,” Warren complained, “but so have a lot of Democrats.”

Quoted for truth.

edited 2nd May '17 12:24:04 AM by MadSkillz

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186113: May 1st 2017 at 10:19:54 PM

[up][up]I think her view was being misinterpreted, but I don't necessarily agree with it in proper context.

[up][up][up]Just voting for left-leaning policy isn't enough; it should be left-leaning policy that is actually feasible. Again, the main issue with Sanders.

edited 1st May '17 10:21:10 PM by LSBK

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186114: May 1st 2017 at 10:20:26 PM

Eh, I don't know why this is a big deal tbh. She'll vote for any remotely left-leaning legislation, and that's really all that matters.

Some people here get angry when Obama is criticized. Maybe they'll acknowledge that he's deserving of criticism sometimes but they're quick to soften those criticisms.

edited 1st May '17 10:23:58 PM by MadSkillz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186115: May 1st 2017 at 10:21:32 PM

I just think that downplaying the very real accomplishments of her own party's former President in an effort to make her point that statistics don't fully reflect reality was a mistake.

Also, supporting Mello in itself is not the issue. It's a good idea since he has a good chance of winning. It's just that calling a guy with anti-abortionist leanings (and a record that supports that) "progressive" while dismissing another guy (who might actually win a red district) with a record of supporting womens' rights as not progressive around the same time...doesn't look good. Note that my full line was "supporting Mello while snubbing Ossof".

edited 1st May '17 10:37:59 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186116: May 1st 2017 at 10:23:48 PM

[up]Fair enough. Like I said, I don't 100% agree name dropping Obama like that was a smart move, I just think I get why she did it, and don't agree it was what Fox made it out to be.

edited 1st May '17 10:24:50 PM by LSBK

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186117: May 1st 2017 at 10:29:52 PM

I'm just going to point out that some people here initially blasted me because I criticized Obama for taking cash from Wall Street as "bad optics" not too long ago.

And I'm seeing some of the same people make the same "bad optics" point against Warren.

Taking cash from Wall Street isn't a big deal but this is? C'mon.

Jasaiga Since: Jan, 2015
#186118: May 1st 2017 at 10:30:00 PM

"ust voting for left-leaning policy isn't enough; it should be left-leaning policy that is actually feasible"

If it's actually coming to a vote in a Congress where it can be passed it's already feasible. There's no way the moderate Dems will let a bullshit bill come to the floor.

A weak bill? Perhaps, depending on your definition. But a bullshit one? Nah.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186119: May 1st 2017 at 10:34:33 PM

[up] Which is one reason moderate centrist Democrats need to remain relevant in the Democratic Party.

Disgusted, but not surprised
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#186120: May 1st 2017 at 10:37:57 PM

Paradoxically, those same moderating Democrats are part of the reason so many people (especially young ones) aren't enthused about the Democratic Party. Boring Yet Practical may be good long term but it's, well, boring and people don't like boring things.

This past election and other things has convinced me most people care more about style than substance. It's just that the styles may be different flavors of harmful.

edited 1st May '17 10:42:20 PM by LSBK

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186121: May 1st 2017 at 10:39:55 PM

[up] Reminds me of this bit from the Last Week Tonight tropes page:

One of the overarching themes of the show is the fact that many of our problems exist because either the problem itself or the solution is seen as too boring in order to warrant any media scrutiny or political resources. There are many segments (such as the one on bail) where the discussion of possible solutions boils down to Boring, but Practical versus Rule of Cool. The "boring" solution (pre-trial services) leads to a much more efficient outcome for most nonviolent crimes, but the "cool" solution (bail bonds and bounty hunters) gives us lots of TV shows.

edited 1st May '17 10:40:09 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#186122: May 1st 2017 at 10:42:06 PM

Yes, these are the centrist talking points. They think they're "pragmatic progressives".

This bullshit again, where Mad tells people what their beliefs "really are". Because after all, only she is a real progressive. The rest of us are vile, centrist neoliberal shills.

You want to tell me, Fox, and anybody else you disagree with to go fuck ourselves? You feel free to do that. But don't you dare tell us how we define ourselves or what we "really are".

I don't agree with what Fox said about Warren or how he tried to spin it. But that is goddamn irrelevant to what you said here. He said he identifies as a member of the left and you tried to tell him that he was wrong. You don't get to do that.

I disagree with you on a whole lot of stuff, Mad. Frankly, I think a lot of the stuff you argue for here represents the very worst the progressive movement has to offer. But you know what—I've never told you that you don't get to identify as a progressive. Neither has anybody else.

If you—or anyone else—is going to play this game, then there is no point in having a conversation. We cannot discuss our political positions if other people think that they can tell us what those positions "really are".

Don't do it. And don't anybody else do it either.

edited 1st May '17 10:52:19 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#186123: May 1st 2017 at 10:44:33 PM

Yeah, after sitting down and thinking on it, I am being unfair to Warren here. My apologies.

New Survey coming this weekend!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#186124: May 1st 2017 at 10:50:07 PM

[up][up][awesome]

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#186125: May 1st 2017 at 11:03:11 PM

This bullshit again, where Mad tells people what their beliefs "really are". Because after all, only she is a real progressive. The rest of us are vile, centrist neoliberal shills.

Nothing hypocritical about this statement. Tell me more about what I think.

You want to tell me, Fox, and anybody else you disagree with to go fuck ourselves? You feel free to do that. But don't you dare tell us how we define ourselves or what we "really are".

I reiterate "Nothing hypocritical about this statement. Tell me more about what I think.

Anyways, I don't. Just 'cause I disagree with you doesn't mean I want you to "fuck yourselves". I'm not a thin-skinned asshole with authoritarian tendencies.

You can identify as whatever you want but that doesn't mean I get to agree with it. I know people who are members of the alt-right who think of themselves as the real progressives. I can call bullshit on that. I'm being purposefully hyperbolic to point out the silliness. Words still have to mean something.

That said my main goal was trying to explain that Center-left to Center-Right falls under the umbrella of centrists. And that a center-left person can be a militant centrist. Just pointing that a duck is a duck.

I don't agree with what Fox said about Warren or tried to spin it. But that is goddamn irrelevant to what you said here. He said he identifies as a member of the left and you tried to tell him that he was wrong. You don't get to do that.

Who is the authority on this?

edited 1st May '17 11:54:17 PM by MadSkillz


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