TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#185176: Apr 27th 2017 at 12:55:10 PM

And in other news, and in a weird mix of high-tech and farmland interests, John Deere has filed a petition with the Copyright office that the software in its tractors falls under the DMCA in regards to tampering, with GM and other automotive manufacturers making similar arguments. And, naturally, this type of shit is nowhere to be seen on any of the major news outlets, despite impacting practically everyone in the US.

[down]

Incidentally, yes, they're jailbreaking their own equipment in order to diagnose issues with it. It means that if someone wants to work on their own vehicle (car, truck, or tractor) with their own tools/parts... they can't, per the EULA they sign upon purchase.

Those restrictions have been felt especially hard on the farm, where vendors like John Deere now require farmers to sign lengthy and comprehensive end user license agreements that forbid equipment owners from nearly all repair and modification to farming equipment, while granting the manufacturer broad immunity from losses resulting from the use (or lack of use) of the equipment resulting from software related errors.

The result? U.S. Farmers are going to the (cyber) underground: paying for versions of John Deere’s diagnostic software and other management tools that have been stripped of the copyright controls. The trade is an end run around the company’s rights management features. That, according to a new report by Motherboard’s Jason Koebler, who has looked into the thriving trade in jailbroken farm equipment, which is not clearly illegal.

So yeah, that's kind of a major flaw that couldn't have been foreseen back in '98 when the DMCA was passed - and if You Tube personalities have the right to get pissy over it, so do farmers.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:13:16 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#185177: Apr 27th 2017 at 12:56:56 PM

Obama's record:

  • He didn't start any new wars and tried to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan.
  • He attempted to close Guantanamo Bay, although Congress totally screwed that objective over a barrel.
  • He passed Obamacare, the most significant piece of progressive economic legislation since the New Deal.
  • He oversaw the ending of Don't Ask/Don't Tell and the judicial removal of most legal bases for discrimination against homosexuals.
  • He signed the Dodd-Frank act and the act creating the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
  • He oversaw the rescue of the auto manufacturers and the successful recovery of our nation's financial system from the Great Recession.

That's just a few things.

[up] You'll have to explain to us dullards why that's so important. Are there people trying to "jailbreak" engine computers? Is there a huge market for third-party engine control software? I really could not give much of a fuck, and nor could 99% of people.

edited 27th Apr '17 12:59:08 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#185178: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:02:52 PM

[up] I remember hearing about this. Jailbreaking tractors is actually super common, because it turns out that a lot of the problems with these specific tractors is because of problems with updates and software conflicts and things like that. All the farmers want is a tractor that works. The other problem is that a tractor like this can only be repaired by a licensed John Deer repairman...and half the time there isn't one anywhere nearby because the course requires expensive programs and losing even a day in the harvest can ruin the season.

TLDR: John Deer has managed to create tractors that have a significantly higher chance than normal of screwing up and ruining someone...unless it's jailbroken, because that means the tractors aren't incessantly checking for updates.

When it comes to cars though, the problem comes up when they can connect to the cell phone network. Turns out you can hack in and remotely turn the engine off. Regardless of what the car is actually doing at the time.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:03:54 PM by Zendervai

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#185179: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:03:06 PM

Since this thread needs more local news: Bill would reform CA sex offender registry Apparently they have gay people on the registries from the time when gay sex was illegal there. Did I say once that California's sex laws are ineptly done rather frequently? Seems like I did.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#185180: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:06:08 PM

The short of it is that you can buy a car/tractor but the companies still technically own the software that makes it run. That keeps owners from being able to repair or modify their vehicle on their own if it's a software issue, even though, unlike a normal computer program, it's only affecting that vehicle.

[nja]'d

edited 27th Apr '17 1:06:31 PM by TheRoguePenguin

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#185181: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:09:24 PM

Also some JD rep said that people cannot own property; only lease it from the corporations that really own it.

Basically they've gone goblin.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:09:35 PM by Deadbeatloser22

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#185182: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:14:22 PM

The leasing argument only makes sense if I have to give it back. I bought my car. I own my car outright. Toyota doesn't get it back, why would they?

Granted, while the Japanese and Korean car companies have flaws of their own, they usually aren't that nasty about it.

Although, in the US, corporations are legally considered persons under the law. So if a person cannot own property and can only lease it from corporations, how can a corporation own property if it's a legal person?

That argument kind of fails in Canada though, if only because the Crown technically owns all the land in the country. Everyone just has extraordinarily generous leases.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:16:10 PM by Zendervai

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#185183: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:15:33 PM

Well over here car makers have started rolling out glorified rental packages, but they're up front about it.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#185184: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:20:30 PM

[up]

Yeah, that was the latest headline - I haven't read the filing in full (which is, fittingly, also immune to being edited or copy/pasted), but the summarizing statement in that Wired article I linked to earlier (and which appears at the bottom of page 5 and top of page 6 of the filing):

If the open source license requires disclosure of source code, such obligations can be met typically by providing a storage medium, such as an optical disc, loaded with the open source software, rather than providing live read access to any express written license in conjunction with the purchase of the vehicle, the vehicle owner receives an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle, subject to any warranty limitations, disclaimers or other contractual limitations in the sales contract or documentation. Even if TPMs for the vehicle software did not exist, accessing the vehicle software in contravention of these licenses could violate copyright, trade secret, or contractual rights of the vehicle manufacturer, its suppliers, or its licensors.

Which they then argue violates the Fair Use provision in the DMCA.

[down]

Yep - as I said, this was not foreseeable back in '98, because I don't think anyone knew just how integrated that type of software technology would become in day-to-day life.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:26:57 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#185185: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:24:39 PM

Huh. So the idea is that you buy the physical tractor, but the software that owns it is the property of the manufacturer and they get total say in what's done with it. That's not entirely inconsistent with other similar software licenses. Frankly, the problem goes way deeper then whether they can stop people from messing with their tractors. It's symptomatic of a deep issue with software licensing in general.

I mean, I play World of Warcraft, and I don't "own" my characters or their stuff. Per the license, Blizzard owns everything related to the game and they're letting me use it for a fee. That's kind of standard.

The question, to me, would come down to whether John Deere has the right to sell equipment with an implied warranty of fitness and then disable or revoke the right to use a critical part of that equipment under the DMCA. It'd be like selling someone a toaster and then saying that the heating filament is only "licensed", so the manufacturer can shut it off whenever they want or demand you upgrade it.

This is only going to become a bigger issue as so many commercial and consumer products use embedded software.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:28:04 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#185186: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:32:43 PM

Sounds like John Deere is to tractors as Apple is to mobile devices as Hecker & Koch is to firearms.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#185187: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:40:17 PM

[up]

Arguably worse, if only because far fewer people expect (or are prepared) to do repairwork on their iWhatever, while farmers do, and gearheads practically thrive on it, so General Motors is really kicking a hornet's nest.

[down][down]

I meant worse in regards to expectations exclusively, as farmers tend to be very self-sufficient, while most with the latest cell phone still go to a professional to get it repaired.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:49:57 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#185188: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:42:11 PM

As far as I understand it, DMCA does not ban erasing software installed on a hardware device, it bans copying or altering it. The "jailbreaking" process essentially modifies certain portions of the software (the part that keeps it from doing what you want it to do) while leaving the rest intact.

If someone created open source firmware for John Deere tractors without actually using any of John Deere's existing code in it, then wiping your tractor's memory and uploading the open source code instead would be fine by DMCA standards. (This is less-implausible than it might sound — DD-WRT is basically exactly that for wireless routers.) But you can't go in and alter their code without their permission, because that's against the license.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#185189: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:43:39 PM

[up][up]There are differences. Farm equipment operators are not software engineers and are not people I'd expect to be fixing bugs. Rather, they would be going to third parties for the jailbreaking tools and the modified software. As the tractor software is not open source, this is absolutely a DMCA violation. The law is on John Deere's side. Whether it should be is a different question.

[up] Yes, this is a valid point. If they're simply installing new firmware that overwrites the manufacturer's software entirely, that's not a DMCA violation. However, there's a potential claim that the third-party software would necessarily be copied or reverse-engineered from the manufacturer's, which is infringing. Further, the tractor operators would definitively be voiding the warranty by updating the machine's software themselves.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:46:00 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#185190: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:45:50 PM

. . . Why would you even need computer software on farm tractors? Doesn't it make everything needlessly complicated? What's the difference between a sturdy tractor from World War II and one now?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#185191: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:47:00 PM

We're not talking about lawn tractors with mechanical throttles and whatnot. These are sophisticated machines with control software much like you'd find in a modern automobile.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#185192: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:47:11 PM

Further, the tractor operators would definitively be voiding the warranty by updating the machine's software themselves.
Well, that's certainly true, but they're presumably doing that anyway by jailbreaking it.

re: "tractor software? really?" — modern industrial-scale tractors include things like GPS-guided autopilot in order to ensure that you're (for example) spreading fertilizer evenly across your entire field, with no overlap and no gaps. These aren't just ride-on lawnmowers scaled up.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:50:03 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#185193: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:52:09 PM

I'm surprised not to see discussion of Trump's tax plan. There's a lot of arguments about it.

The Hill had two articles, one saying that it would drain the swamp, another saying it would hit blue states the hardest.

What are your thoughts on this? (Work is about to end, sorry I don't have much time to say much more)

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#185194: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:56:49 PM

[up][up]

Aside from that, the farmers are running headlong into the problem of "Your software is out of date, take it in to get updated. Until then, the onboard system will treat the entire mechanical assembly as a Schrodingers Cat and assume that it's nonfunctional as a precaution, rendering your equipment an ornate field ornament until then."

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#185195: Apr 27th 2017 at 2:24:22 PM

Is there any particular reason why companies aren't making non-computerized farm equipment to pull the rug out from under Deere, et. al.? Seems like there'd be a lot of demand for such a product.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#185196: Apr 27th 2017 at 2:32:42 PM

There isnt, because computerized tractors are more efficient and productive than the old kind.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#185197: Apr 27th 2017 at 2:37:26 PM

[up][up][up][up] Worth noting that the first is a right wing opinion piece, and it leaves out the massive budget hole his tax cuts would leave.

Other than that, Trump's plan is just the same thing Bush did but worse. The bubble would build, pop, and the taxpayers would be left with the bill.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#185198: Apr 27th 2017 at 2:52:10 PM

@Trash Jack: Because Technology Marches On, and the older stuff that isn't computerized isn't the most efficient stuff on the market anymore. Going analog, in this case, would drive up their costs, probably.

In any case, I bet there's a lot of money out there for whoever decides they'll write up some software for these farmers that don't constantly cause these things to want to update. Pulling the rug out from under Deere, in this case, means making it so that the thing doesn't just stop working when it says it's update time, thus causing a safety issue or major inconvenience.

edited 27th Apr '17 2:53:12 PM by AceofSpades

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#185199: Apr 27th 2017 at 3:06:05 PM

So, what do you think was Obama's successes and failures, and how much credit or blame does he deserve for them respectively?

Successes :

Obamacare. Although saying it's the single significant most important piece of progressive legislation since the New Deal is really not true. Medicare and Medicaid exist too.

Dodd-Frank

Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

Opened up with relations with Cuba.

Made a pretty decent deal with Iran.

Debatably help rescue the economy with his stimulus package and other policies.

Reversed Bush Torture policies.

Appointed 300 federal judges that are now protecting us from Trump.

Cut veteran homelessness by half.

Helped the LGBTQ community out.

Etc.

Failures:

Under him, Democrats lost over 1,000 seats in state and federal elections.

Did absolutely nothing to battle the unwinding of campaign finance regulations. In fact, he made promises from his campaign that he wound up breaking up because of that.

The five biggest banks now own 44 % of the banks in America. Up from 9 %.

Pushing the TPP which would've hurt American labor yet again and helped corporations out. But luckily, he failed. So I'll count this as a failure because of its intent and it not being able to passed.

He never closed down Gutanamo Bay.

He was employing a mass drone assassination campaign that killed thousands of people many of them innocents and some of them American citizens.

Oil subsidies doubled under Obama despite railing against the oil industry.

Obama approved a giant oil company to drill in Arctic waters and opens up the South Atlantic for offshore deepwater drilling. Even environmental groups were surprised that he'd go this far.

His closeness to Wall Street angered enough people on both sides of the party to help birth the Occupy Wall Street Movement (which he would later crush) and the Tea Party (which would later pervert America's politics).

Etc.

edited 27th Apr '17 3:23:03 PM by MadSkillz

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#185200: Apr 27th 2017 at 3:11:52 PM

To clarify, the thing the DMCA forbids which is at issue here is circumventing copy protection measures. But the only way to modify embedded software in a device is to make a working copy of it to which modifications are made.

At the moment, the Library of Congress has a standing DMCA fair use exemption for the software in cars and tractors, as it also currently does for cell phones. This is what John Deere is trying to get overturned and "you don't own the tractor because we own the software" is the argument they're using. (It's less like a Wo W character, Fighter, and more like a music album bought on iTunes or even a physical CD with the music encoded on it in data form—a thing the music industry tried to make the same claim for.)

This part of the law has been troublesome in other ways too; it hampers security researchers and academmics who work to verify the quality and security of software. This becomes increasingly a problem the more we depend on software-enabled tech...to throw out an example that currently exists, software in medical devices and implants. All of these things do meet the points of the fair use defense (you're not actually making copies, you're not seeking to distribute for profit, etc). The companies involved mostly want to use the law as a blunt instrument to maintain control over their product and hamper competition.

edited 27th Apr '17 3:30:21 PM by Elle


Total posts: 417,856
Top