TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#184951: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:04:44 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#184952: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:05:20 PM

[up][up][up]

The rare occasions when the stars align however are generally quite positive, ie the civil rights and labor movement.

Sadly, what is going on right now does not look like one of those occasions.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:06:23 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#184953: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:07:21 PM

Except that nobody here except for you has referred to Elizabeth Warren as a populist in any capacity.

Well that was my point since many of you like Elizabeth Warren but unaware that she's considered a populist to many while also trying to get in on "the populism is bad" bandwagon.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#184954: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:07:50 PM

[up][up] Trump isn't an example of the tyranny of the majority in the first place, and is in fact pretty much the best possible example of why limiting democracy to curb the "excesses" of the "unwashed" masses is generally even worse than the alternative.

The American political system was designed to privilege white rural landowners—who the founders of the Republic considered to be the people best suited to governance—over all other voters, and in Trump we see the system working precisely as intended.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:10:15 PM by CaptainCapsase

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#184955: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:10:59 PM

Unless some massive shift happened in the vote count while I wasn't looking, Clinton won the popular vote. She just didn't win it in the right states to matter. Wouldn't populism have to be the actual majority?

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#184956: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:11:07 PM

I'd be inclined to say the exact opposite, Cap, given the general nature out Trump supporters as we know them.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:11:31 PM by sgamer82

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#184957: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:12:07 PM

[up][up] Precisely my point. People looking at Trump as an example of why popular mobilization is bad and we should let the "best and the brightest" run society are engaging in some serious historical revisionism.

[up] Go back and read the various writings of the framers on the topic of democracy then, Madison in particular. They specifically designed the system to privilege rural landowners over city dwellers, and that's precisely what it's done with Trump. His cabinet of plutocrats and strongmen is entirely consistent with the principles upon which America was founded; the country was intended to be run by the rural landlords and the captains of industry.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:16:01 PM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#184958: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:12:17 PM

When Warren talks like a populist, my hackles rise and I want to bite her. When she talks like someone who listens to sensible economists, then I'm interested.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#184959: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:12:36 PM

Yes, I do and I stand by my statement. As you yourself say, Trump got in thanks to populist sentiment, whatever else he may be.

That's the thing . People are angry on the right and left. Staying the course does not fix that. Identify the problem and then fix it. Or else things are going to implode. Actually you could even see the Tea Party and Trump as the start of that implosion.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#184960: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:15:51 PM

Sorry, dude, I don't buy this idea that the unwashed masses are possessed of some unique insight into how to run nations. Most of the time, what they want is informed by ignorance and the carefully crafted illusions of those in power.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:16:21 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#184961: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:16:12 PM

[up][up] Don't worry about changing my mind. You won't. "Staying the course" may not solve every problem, but the general chaos that seems to be a trademark of populist movements creates too many more or its own for me to see it as a preferable alternative

edited 26th Apr '17 4:16:44 PM by sgamer82

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#184964: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:17:56 PM

@Fighteer: That's not what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that rule by "experts"* is generally even worse than the alternative, due to the nasty of habit of said people diverting as much of societies output into their own pockets as they can get away with.

* Which is to say rule by economic elites since the actual intellectual class is simply too small and lacking in resources to control society.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:33:02 PM by CaptainCapsase

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#184965: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:18:26 PM

Warren pointed to a speech that Obama gave last summer. Obama said, "the system isn't as rigged as you think it is." In the book, Warren fires back saying, "No, President Obama, the system is as rigged as we think. In face, it's worse than most Americans realize."

Warren elaborated on the comments from her book uring a recent interview with VOX. She explained that money in Washington comes from more sources than the contributors and lobbyists that make headlines.

"It's bought-and-paid-for experts who testify before Congress and are quoted in the press," Warren told Vox. "It's think tanks that are funded by shadowy money and always have a particular point of view that just seems to help the rich and the powerful get richer and more powerful."

She's my realistic and ideal presidential candidate.

FireCrawler2002 Since: Apr, 2017
#184966: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:18:43 PM

[up][up][up] So it was just more saber-rattling/fearmongering after all.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:18:57 PM by FireCrawler2002

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#184967: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:20:01 PM

Been a while since I last remember Cap busting out "elites"

edited 26th Apr '17 4:20:09 PM by sgamer82

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#184968: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:21:23 PM

[up] Nobody who seriously looks at modern society can claim that we don't have a very distinct and quite rigid class hierarchy (which is further stratified and subdivided by things like race and gender), and "elites" is generally the best short hand for the class of people at the top of that hierarchy.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:22:09 PM by CaptainCapsase

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#184969: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:21:47 PM

Moderate House Republicans, mostly in the Tuesday Group, are signaling they are against the amended AHCA. Senate Republicans remain firmly opposed to AHCA despite the amendment.

I hope the Tuesday Group does vote against the Bill, because they have enough members to kill it in its sleep. But we'll see if the House even bothers trying to bring it to the floor...

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#184970: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:21:54 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]I'm sorry, I thought you were all for people with huge amounts of interest in catering to the Great White Male and nothing else.

Salon editorial can go fellate itself, but that's a nice soundbite.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:22:36 PM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#184971: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:22:09 PM

[up][up][up] And?

edited 26th Apr '17 4:22:21 PM by sgamer82

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#184972: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:22:26 PM

@Madskillz: By any criteria you care about, Warren is yet another elite leading you around by your ignorance. I'm sorry; there is nobody "pure" enough for you.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:23:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#184973: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:24:27 PM

I'm sorry, I thought you were all for people with huge amounts of interest in catering to the Great White Male.

I know they're the same face and gender but there's quite a bit of difference between white working class people and rich corporate CE Os.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#184974: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:24:31 PM

[up][up][up] And what? If you think such hierarchies immutable and natural, you're a conservative at heart.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:24:43 PM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#184975: Apr 26th 2017 at 4:26:43 PM

The establishment is not monolithic though.

Just as one example, take The Economist. They are as much an establishment journal as it gets - they're big on "the free market can solve anything". Their opinion pages backed Obama and later Clinton, not Trump.

Bloomberg? Former mayor of NYC, owns a media empire based on finance news? Keynote speaker at the DNC. Also can't personally stand Trump.

Every business that benifits from NAFTA? (Which by the way, is a major reason relations with Mexico have been as good as they have been the past couple decades?) Probably not a fan of Trump.

Businesses working on renewable/green energy and resources? Not fans of Trump.

Businesses like Google and Microsoft and Amazon whose business would be hurt by weakening Net Neutrality? Not fans of Trump.

Mad, much of your stance is based on the premise that the interests of business and elites are always opposed to the interests of the common people. Closer to the truth is that it's a co-dependent relationship. Whether the relationship is exploitative or not depends on how the business is run and exploitative business is not infinitely sustainable. Where business interests align with ours, we ought to take advantage of that. Where there are competing interests like in the net neutrality debate, we should back the side that aligns on the side of good. And if money turns the wheels in Washington, well, we need all the help we can get right now. Judge the politicians on what they do with that money and don't assume politicians and money interest working together in automatic bad faith.

BTW, I have earmarked a couple of the scholarly papers in your earlier post for later reading. I probably won't have time to get all through them tonight.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:28:07 PM by Elle


Total posts: 417,856
Top