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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183801: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:41:09 PM

@Ace Funnily enough, I actually like Warren more than Sanders but Warren isn't stepping up to the plate like Sanders is and neither does she have his popularity.

So I gotta make do with Sanders.

edited 19th Apr '17 6:41:21 PM by MadSkillz

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#183802: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:41:45 PM

I would agree it is a tiresome argument, but it's a necessary one. Like it or not, Bernie Sanders is a big figure nowadays and since this is a politics thread, it is crucial we discuss it. In this particular case it's not like this discussion emerged from the abject nothing, there's a reason to discuss it (Sanders's statements on Ossof).

Or rather for you to discuss it and for me to watch it all from afar.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#183803: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:43:45 PM

@Mad Skillz

Well then what do you think of it? My take is that Sanders has spent a lot of time talking about reaching out to Trump voters and districts that went for Trump but that when presented with the opportunity to actually do so, seems reluctant to put his money where his mouth is. The district Ossof was running in just barely went for Trump, and would seem prime for being flipped. Ossof was polling well, even before the Democratic Establishment got behind him. He's a young guy, and if elected would be one of the few millennial Members of Congress. From where I'm looking at it, this seems like a perfect place for Sanders to demonstrate his ability to mobilize his base to support a Democrat and prove that he's right about districts that went for Trump.

Instead he states that he doesn't know if Ossof is a progressive (a decision virtually calculated to depress turnout among his own supporters), and declares his intent to go campaign for a Blue Dog (not that he calls him that) in a mayoral election in Omaha.

If I'm Tom Perez I am, at this point, seriously reconsidering Sanders' ability/willingness to help the Democrats accomplish things.

edited 19th Apr '17 6:45:17 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183804: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:46:44 PM

In retrospect it probably would have been better for Tom to take Ellison on the Unity tour instead of Sanders.

For better or worse Sander's is probably too independent to make for a useful unifying figure at the moment, where as Tom Perez's and Keith Ellison's amicability during and after the election was something genuine that people could believe in I think.

There are trade offs. Bernie can rally a crowd bigger and faster than Ellison can.

But on the other hand, Bernie doesn't even see it as a unity tour. He sees it as a way to highlight the issues (and maybe promote his version of the Democratic Party).

Basically, Bernie and Perez are using each other. And I think Bernie may possibly be getting the better of end of the deal.

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#183805: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:48:27 PM

[up] Bigger crowds don't actually mean anything unless it can be translated into either political capital or votes.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#183806: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:55:13 PM

[up]Being able to draw a large rally is certainly nice, but yeah, it doesn't mean anything if those people don't proceed to vote for you.

Also welcome to the politics thread, Sophia.

edited 19th Apr '17 6:55:30 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183807: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:56:25 PM

[up][up],[up] See: the primaries.

Always good to see a new face!

edited 19th Apr '17 6:57:04 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#183808: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:57:34 PM

[up]Precisely. And even if we were to grant the claims of some of the Sanders fans that they were prevented in some way from voting via unfair means, the point would still stand.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183809: Apr 19th 2017 at 6:57:37 PM

Well then what do you think of it? My take is that Sanders has spent a lot of time talking about reaching out to Trump voters and districts that went for Trump but that when presented with the opportunity to actually do so, seems reluctant to put his money where his mouth is. The district Ossof was running in just barely went for Trump, and would seem prime for being flipped. Ossof was polling well, even before the Democratic Establishment got behind him. He's a young guy, and if elected would be one of the few millennial Members of Congress. From where I'm looking at it, this seems like a perfect place for Sanders to demonstrate his ability to mobilize his base to support a Democrat and prove that he's right about districts that went for Trump.

Instead he states that he doesn't know if Ossof is a progressive (a decision virtually calculated to depress turnout among his own supporters), and declares his intent to go campaign for a Blue Dog (not that he calls him that) in a mayoral election in Omaha. If I'm Tom Perez I am, at this point, seriously reconsidering Sanders' ability/willingness to help the Democrats accomplish things.

I'm on board with why you're saying so I'm not really happy about this.

Either Bernie didnt think much about what he said, he doesn't like Ossoff or he's only really willing to bat for candidates that he sees as progressive (unless it's do or die like with Hillary).

And I'm not sure we're all going to agree with what a progressive is but to Bernie, I think it's someone that's willing to fight corporations.

So maybe that Blue Dog has some lefty economic positions.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183810: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:00:52 PM

Bigger crowds don't actually mean anything unless it can be translated into either political capital or votes.

Some people are bound to listen. A lot of the Sanders crowd are young kids so they're still getting into politics. Sanders is kind of a gateway politician from what I've seen. So hearing Perez or some other Dems speak alongside Sanders could make them a little more interested in the Democratic Party.

And if Bernie advertises some progressive Democrats that'll be picked up on and translate into votes.

edited 19th Apr '17 7:03:40 PM by MadSkillz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183811: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:02:29 PM

[up] Gateway politician? That sounds an awful lot like gateway drug. Which given the cultish nature of the whole thing isn't too far off.

I'm not sure the potential gains in votes is worth encouraging messianic politics. Actually, I'm pretty sure they're not.

edited 19th Apr '17 7:05:47 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183812: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:05:05 PM

I've met a lot of kids that didn't start getting into politics until Sanders hooked them in.

edited 19th Apr '17 7:07:07 PM by MadSkillz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183813: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:07:05 PM

[up] The important thing is, will they stay involved even after Sanders is not?

Disgusted, but not surprised
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#183814: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:07:48 PM

[up][up]And that is not categorically different than what happened with Obama-with many of the same staying home or voting for someone else in 2012.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183815: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:10:29 PM

And concerning Sanders not endorsing Ossof, potentially fucking things up for the June run-off...

WTF Sanders?! Just...WTF?!

He says he wants the Democratic Party to succeed, but refuses to go to bat for a young Democrat who made it to the June run-off in a traditionally Red district.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#183816: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:10:35 PM

Yeah, where are these people going to go when Sanders retires or dies?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#183817: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:21:06 PM

Hopefully stay around, considering that the issue doesn't end just because someone retires or dies.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183818: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:27:42 PM

And I'm not sure we're all going to agree with what a progressive is but to Bernie, I think it's someone that's willing to fight corporations.

Unless it's a defense contractor like Lockheed Martin in Vermont.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#183819: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:30:40 PM

[up][up] Whole lot of "hopefully"s these days, not so many positive "definitely"s going around anymore. Can't call it a good omen.

edited 19th Apr '17 7:31:17 PM by TrashJack

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#183820: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:32:37 PM

He says he wants the Democratic Party to succeed, but refuses to go to bat for a young Democrat who made it to the June run-off in a traditionally Red district.

Sanders: Dems should try to get the wwc vote

A Dem gets a good chunk of the wwc and Sanders is nowhere to throw the bone

I'm sure the issue is more nuanced than this, but I'm tired.

Coal company plans huge solar farm on strip mine

Even coal companies know coal's time, like this mountain they fucked up, is long gone. And I'm sure this presents a good opportunity for coal workers worried about layoffs to learn a new job skill installing solar panels and they won't whine..... bwahahaha!

edited 19th Apr '17 7:33:35 PM by NoName999

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183821: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:34:04 PM

@M84 That's something I've been privately worried about. That the whole thing is too Sanders-centric rather than progressive-centric.

So I do have issues that politicians become popular or well-known based on Sanders' blessing rather than on their politics.

Sanders is still human and can make mistakes as he did with Tulsi.

But that's no different from the young Obama voters.

Looking for a messiah is a stage kids go through.

edited 19th Apr '17 7:36:39 PM by MadSkillz

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#183822: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:35:21 PM

So stop putting him on a pedestal and demonizing a successful progressive President who got a lot accomplished in the last 8 years.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183823: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:38:42 PM

So stop putting him on a pedestal and demonizing a successful progressive President who got a lot accomplished in the last 8 years.

You talking about Obama? Because Obama is no progressive.

He was Wall Street's candidate in 2008.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183824: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:41:40 PM

[up][up][up]

Sanders is still human and can make mistakes as he did with Tulsi.

Don't forget Canova, who by all accounts is an absolutely awful human being and a conspiracy nutter. And who couldn't even beat DWS.

[up] I'm pretty sure putting America on the path to accepting public healthcare via the ACA counts as progressive. Regardless of how Obama identifies himself.

edited 19th Apr '17 7:43:27 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#183825: Apr 19th 2017 at 7:47:43 PM

[up][up] Yeah, those corporations sure appreciate Dodd Frank and the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau.

Stop this 'Wall Street' candidate nonsense. Obama most assuredly wasn't. He initiated a large amount of actions progressives should absolutely celebrate.

edited 19th Apr '17 7:48:35 PM by Lightysnake


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