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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#170226: Jan 27th 2017 at 4:54:39 PM

Uh that change in the constitution means alot. Just the symbolism heightens the possibility.
And the economics will suck. First the sudden trade barriers but the red states in the middle will lose significant purchase power from the lack of coastal state taxes and red state policy against government transfers. The blue states will suddenly become enclaves with smaller markets and significantly fewer natural resources. When—not if—the coastal states are reintegrated, the US will probably have already been split into fiefdoms for the wealthy. (Republicans, back when they were respectable, did something similar after the Southern succession temporarily crippled the democrats).

it won't work because 

Plus the fundamental truth, best outlined in this comment on that California story:

If you aren't willing to pick up a rifle and kill for this goal, don't bother to sign. If you do not want others to kill and die for this goal, do not sign. This will never happen peacefully
I'm not one to talk, because I would much rather be running away. But alas, we're against the wall, and—until someone thinks of a better escape option—we cornered mice have to fight (politically).

edited 27th Jan '17 4:55:53 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#170227: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:09:03 PM

I'd be hesitant to even endorse laying the groundwork for California secession at this stage.

Calexit isn't just a nuclear option in my opinion, it's a response to the country hitting the Godzilla Threshold. Where all legal and quasi-legal means have been exhausted and it's the only way for any semblance of democracy to have any chance of being preserved in any part of what would then be the former United States of America. We aren't even close to being there yet, and hopefully we will never reach that point.

Under such extreme circumstance, any legal barriers would be irrelevant. The California constitution could be amended, or even replaced, at the same time independence is declared.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#170228: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:13:39 PM

Pretty much mirrors my thoughts. Right now, we cannot afford to lose California. Because as dark as things may seem, all is not lost. Not even close. There are battles coming and we need Cali's firepower.

For Calexit to be a viable choice (putting aside the fact that it's almost certainly another Russian scheme), things would have to have gotten so bad that Cali needed to just hit the eject button and try to preserve some semblance of American values within itself.

Hopefully with Cali's help, we can make sure it never gets to that point.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#170229: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:17:51 PM

The "Second American Civil War and other crisis scenarios - The Trump Factor" thread has been made. Please direct all discussions about hypothetical scenarios involving major crises happening because of the Trump regime to it.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#170230: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:31:04 PM

For Calexit to be a viable choice (putting aside the fact that it's almost certainly another Russian scheme)

That's not entirely true. There are two different independence movements in California and one of them is funded by the Russians and the other one isn't and looks at disdain with the Russian funded movement.

There's the California National Party which is a center-left party .

And then there's the Yes California political committee which is funded by the Russians whose leader voted for Trump, is living in Russia and is the one who submitted this proposal to amend the state's constitution.

[up] Why is that in the World Building section of the forums?

edited 27th Jan '17 5:31:37 PM by MadSkillz

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#170231: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:36:15 PM

Here's the thing about thay California constitution thing - the change doesn't mean dick because the states are already indivisible as per the US Constitution (not in the actual text, but via SCOTUS precedent hinging on the words "more perfect union" and the "perpetual union" clause of the Articles of Confederation).

The amendment to the constitution is repealing the Constitution to being the supreme law of the land of California.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#170232: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:36:35 PM

[up][up]Whether there's two movements is irrelevant. No matter which one succeeds in breaking them away it's a net gain for Russia and a loss for American democracy.

edited 27th Jan '17 5:36:56 PM by Kostya

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#170233: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:39:05 PM

Of course, if American democracy dies, that argument becomes academic.

In better news, Trump and May recommitted to NATO. But we all know what the word of a conservative is worth these days, so stay scared.

edited 27th Jan '17 5:40:27 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#170234: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:39:56 PM

[up]x4 Because three different tropers made Alternate History from the premise. Also, I posted a reply there to this thing you said in post 170180:

"But anyways that would halve the original US' economy maybe worse."

Edit: USUncut: Trump supporters defend Adolf Hitler in response to Pope Francis’ remarks about white nationalism. Please be a bad joke.

edited 27th Jan '17 5:46:05 PM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#170235: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:49:01 PM

[up]Those are literal holocaust deniers-for your own sanity, do not delve down that rabbit hole.

fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#170236: Jan 27th 2017 at 5:57:58 PM

My fear is that holocaust denial will become commonplace under this administration.

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#170237: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:00:12 PM

In "recommitting" to NATO Trump and PM May might just be trying to derail a European Army (a potential EU project and a stated goal of many EU public officials). Both have objected to Europe forming an EU based army in the past. (And both objections sounded specious at best).
Trump may just want to cut a rival off at the knees but I can't even hypothesize about Prime Minister May's reasons.

edited 27th Jan '17 6:54:56 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#170238: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:01:47 PM

I feel like that's a bridge too far even for most of the Republican base. They go to absurd lengths to deny the fact that they're racist and claim Hitler was secretly a leftist.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#170239: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:04:56 PM

Why is that in the World Building section of the forums?
IFWanderer beat me to it, but yeah, it's because the topic is about hypothetical scenarios, and so far all the ideas are explicitly for fictional stories (whether or not we would end up actually writing them down is besides the point IMO).

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#170240: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:16:52 PM

@Wanderer, ughh....they've all come out of the woodwork and they're never going to leave.

I need an outlet (other than drinking...). I'm so buying Wolfenstein The New Order when it goes on sale.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#170241: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:18:55 PM

It's a good game, full of inflicting brutal, bloody violence on Nazis. So it's very good stress-relief material these days. (At one point you can drown a Nazi in his own piss. No joke.)

EDIT: Fucking hell—Dick Cheney says that the Muslim ban is "against everything we stand for.

One week into his new regime, and Dick frickin' Cheney is calling him an evil dickhead. Just goes to show how far we've fallen, when Cheney is suddenly occupying the moral high ground.

edited 27th Jan '17 6:21:41 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#170242: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:22:15 PM

The amendment to the constitution is repealing the Constitution to being the supreme law of the land of California.
You can't do that without actually leaving the Union because the Constitution is the supreme law of the land in the entire United States as per Article VI, Section 2 (aka the Supremacy Clause). And you can't just walk out of the Union because secession is illegal, and in fact, as per Texas v. White, has no Constitutional basis or even possibility (indeed, the official position of the US government, both then and now, is that the Confederacy never seceded and were merely "states in rebellion"). Essentially, the only way to leave is to get enough of the armed forces on your side to actually beat the loyalist forces, or at least convince them that stopping you is more trouble than its worth.

edited 27th Jan '17 6:23:32 PM by Balmung

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#170243: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:22:25 PM

[up][up]I mean, The Saboteur was great fun last December once I got past the fact that Stupid Jetpack Hitler was in full effect. Well that and the main character being the worst Irish stereotype I've ever seen in modern fiction.

And I do suppose that May and Trump could easily just be planning to derail an EU army, not support NATO. If Putin decides to wail on Europe, does May think that Channel is going to protect the Isles?

edited 27th Jan '17 6:26:44 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#170244: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:23:54 PM

I do believe that Cheney was complaining about Trump for a while. He criticized the Muslim ban just as the race was starting.

Leviticus 19:34
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#170245: Jan 27th 2017 at 6:51:55 PM

[up] You've been awfully quiet thus far. As a Republican (albeit one who voted against him), what do you think of what Trump's done thus far?

edited 27th Jan '17 6:52:06 PM by CaptainCapsase

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#170246: Jan 27th 2017 at 7:08:13 PM

@My thoughts on Trump: originally, cautious optimism-I was hoping he'd turn out better than I expected...Until the stuff about Russia came out. Now I suspect he's a collaborator with Putin, who I'm not at all fond of.

Leviticus 19:34
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#170247: Jan 27th 2017 at 7:25:45 PM

I get the distinct impression that Trump picking a fight with Mexico is a way of distracting from his approval ratings.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#170248: Jan 27th 2017 at 7:32:34 PM

[up]is a way to boost i and is way of dealing business: bully the others to do what you want and them tell that is "smart", if not, run away and let other fall with the blame.

Trump like Maduro like tought posturing, the one where he try to show is weinner is bigger than yours, its so predictable is Sad!.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#170249: Jan 27th 2017 at 7:34:37 PM

[up] Unlike your President though, he has the strongest military in the world at his command.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#170250: Jan 27th 2017 at 7:37:21 PM

Oh come on, guys. I called this- Trump is walking back every promise he ever made, while trying to make it look like he's moving forward. We were never leaving NATO, and May's visit just gave him the cover he needed. He'll pretend to study how to build a wall, which is never getting built. He's set up a moratorium on people coming to the US based on their country of origin, not their religion, and on and on. I'm not apologizing for him, I'm just pointing out how full of shit he is.

He's never going to become the next Hitler or Mussolini, because you have to take risks to take over a country (also because we wont let him).

He wants you to run scared. Dont run scared. He's a clown pretending to be President, and he's destined to destroy himself. But we all have a role to play in bringing that about- so let's stop desparing and get to work brainstorming strategies and organizing ourselves.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.

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