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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#169101: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:07:01 PM

[up][up] I definitely agree, but the plutocrats backing the party are probably the most likely part of the power bloc that matters to turn on Trump given his protectionist stances, and if the plutocrats turn on him a large chunk of the Republican congress also turns on him. We can always piece the welfare state back together later, but the consequences of allowing Trump's burgeoning oligarchic clique to consolidate power could last indefinitely.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:10:37 PM by CaptainCapsase

RisingStar Since: Nov, 2016
#169102: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:10:09 PM

@IF Wanderer: I've been looking into ways to fund organizations that get books to areas where people just don't have books, for starters, especially rural areas that don't have access to a major library. Even better if you can send them specific books - see Reader to Reader, for example.

It's worth noting that a lot of organizations like this can get access to books and other resources cheaper than you can as a private buyer, though, and some of them have donation-matching deals with sponsors, so if you'd rather/can only give money or spread the word, that's perfectly fine.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:14:32 PM by RisingStar

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#169103: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:11:52 PM

[up][up]You really think so? Clinton tried that tactic before Sanders yoinked her leftward.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:11:58 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#169104: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:13:02 PM

[up] That's a strategy that should be used in congress, ideally behind closed doors, not in campaign seasons when everybody is paying attention. As far as democratic voters go, obviously don't cede ground to the GOP, and be prepared to be voting for a relatively junior congressperson in the next presidential cycle who hasn't sacrificed their reputation for the cause.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:16:17 PM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#169105: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:17:37 PM

So, make secret deals that you know will be used against you by both sides when you run for office again. Great idea!!!

edited 24th Jan '17 5:20:11 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#169106: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:19:34 PM

[up] Hence the "expect to vote for a relatively junior congressperson" thing; alternatively don't get caught and bullshit your way out like Trump if you do; the sad state of the American media is what let him get away with that.

The objective is not to advance the party's political position, but simply to mitigate long term damage to its position from anti-democratic measures taken by the Trump administration.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:25:36 PM by CaptainCapsase

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#169107: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:19:48 PM

It has been said a few times here that there's roughly three types of GOP voters (some of course belong to more than one group): The personally racist ones, the rich/plutocrats and the people who're "trapped" in the right-wing media disinformation bubble, but would otherwise be nice people in a one-on-one conversation. Would anyone be opposed to trying to reach that third group (read: the part of it that's not also in group 1)? and how can the disinformation bubble be broken?

As far as a one-on-one situation goes, you'd probably have to make it personal and create some type of rapport with them. If they see you as a three-dimensional person who has something in common (anything at all) with them they are more inclined to listen to you. It's super hard work though, people with firmly established beliefs don't just and up change their convictions every night, it takes a lot of needling away and often something that affects on a very personal level for them to change.

I can't speak from personal experience but I think this is especially hard in a situation like this where most people are tired and (understandably) resentful of anyone who helped the situation to get this far, it is a lot of effort for someone who might never come around anyways.

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#169108: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:21:59 PM

How bad must things get before Trump supporters overwhelmingly realize they've been screwed? That is, they can't possibly blame failure on Democrats or some other outside force?

I know things have to affect them personally, but what, and how might that happen?

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#169109: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:23:11 PM

Jake Tapper is becoming one of my favorite tv journalists these days.

Also, @ all of Trump's policies that he announced + his censorship of government agencies: I'm even more terrified than I was a few days ago.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#169110: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:23:22 PM

[up][up]The threat of ACA going away has been enough for some people I've heard of.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:23:38 PM by Gilphon

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#169111: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:25:16 PM

Also, @ all of Trump's policies that he announced + his censorship of government agencies: I'm even more terrified than I was a few days ago.

Don't forget the mass arrest of protestors, to be charged with groundless felonies. And the simultaneous arrest of all the journalists who were present, to also be charged with felonies.

Re: his supporters turning on him. Right now, I honestly think that no matter how badly the GOP screwed them all over, all Trump would need to do is repeatedly say "it's the Democrats' fault" and they would believe it. That's the purpose of propaganda, and that kind of fact-defying bullshit is exactly what got him where he is.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#169112: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:25:54 PM

[up]x5 — And that kind of conversion, assuming it can be done at all, would have to be done individually, personally, on a one-to-one basis, several million times over to have any noticeable effect. Good luck with that...

edited 24th Jan '17 5:27:27 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#169113: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:26:54 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Gutting Net Neutrality would do the trick, as they love their memes and anime.

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#169114: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:28:34 PM

[up][up]Of course it would be done to individual people. But like, one person could find that Trump didn't bring the jobs back, one person could find themself in far worse financial trouble, etc. Different thing for different person.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#169115: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:29:37 PM

Some of the alt-right might turn on him in that case but only him specifically, they wouldn't stop being white supremacists or reactionaries.

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#169116: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:30:07 PM

I wonder what it was like to be a Republican in 2009.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#169117: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:30:51 PM

A Recession would be enough, I'd say: It was enough to get many of these people to vote for Obama over Mc Cain 8 years ago. Problem is, the sooner a Recession happens, the longer we have to slog through it, and the current Republican Party might actually make it a Depression, especially with Donald "I don't understand Macro or Micro Economics" Trump.

[up] Living with 2 very Republican Parents, I can tell you that all they did was stew in their own anger and sadness when Politics was involved, until the Tea Party came in and gave them a way to actively shout at Obama.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:32:17 PM by DingoWalley1

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#169118: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:31:19 PM

@Rbluefish

They'll also accept his bullshit because it lets them continue to believe that they did nothing wrong.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#169119: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:32:28 PM

[up][up][up][up] Some of them genuinely don't seem to realize that the discrimination faced by various minority demographics in the modern day has consequences beyond hurt feelings, and seem to think that the modern social justice movement is just a cynical power ploy. An anti-Trump protest going the way of Tienanmen square would probably change a great many minds.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:33:43 PM by CaptainCapsase

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#169120: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:34:42 PM

But we need to remember the sheer amount of propaganda and misinformation that's being spread. Which will only get worse.

There could be an American Tiananmen Square - Standing Rock is looking like a likely candidate - and Sean Spicer would say "no, didn't happen." And some people would believe it.

And of the ones who didn't, a good number might go "well, they weren't white, so doesn't seem like a big deal to me." Subconsciously, sure, but that's where we're at.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#169121: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:39:21 PM

Oh, and the suppression of protest continues. House Republicans are going to let state agencies sue peaceful protestors for police overtime costs.

Our tax dollars already pay for your thugs' salaries, goddamn it.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#169122: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:40:36 PM

We've had Tienanmen Square already. It's passe, water under the bridge. Nobody pays attention any more on the right. The media engine has geared up and is fully equipped to minimize or redirect the blame for any hate crime no matter how blatant.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:41:12 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#169123: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:43:37 PM

I'm sorry people, but I simply don't have the temperament to engage in calm, reasoned debate with Der Trumpenführer's supporters, and try to convince them of the error of their ways. I tend to reflect what others do to me: if someone is rude to me, I'm rude right back at them. So I don't think I can help you in the manner you proscribe. Maybe someone else can, but I can't.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#169124: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:45:24 PM

[up][up] What are you referring to?

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#169125: Jan 24th 2017 at 5:46:11 PM

[up][up][up] So thousands of people have been killed and tens of thousands arrested for protesting against Trump? The magnitude of what's happened so far pales in comparison to some of the things that occurred during the darkest days of the civil rights and labor movements, much less the atrocity you're referencing.

edited 24th Jan '17 5:54:12 PM by CaptainCapsase


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