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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
False Equivalence and the Golden Mean Fallacy pretty much fucked our country, huh?
New Survey coming this weekend!Has it not been observed in the last few years that Democrats are willing to make compromises, but the GOP doesn't really want to play ball in return?
It takes two to tango. If one side is going to stab you in the back it's very hard to make a compromise in good faith that they will be willing to cooperate with you later down the line.
Fighting Nazis is an American patriotic duty.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.![]()
Both Bushes and Reagan were elected on the strength of "feel good" politics that ignored reality, and in all three cases, the media passively went along with the scam.
There is no compromise solution. The other side has declared total war on everything progressive and liberal, and if we don't fight back, they'll win through our collective apathy. If we don't fight back metaphorically, through the political system, it'll be actual war.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:13:42 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
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I'd argue it goes back to Vietnam and Nixon - the back-to-back combination of Vietnam, Watergate and the presidency of Jimmy Carter pretty much killed American belief in 'the system.' After that, it became all about being the candidate who seemed to walk outside that system, who was in touch with the 'common man' (whatever that means in a country as diverse as the US), about being as far from the crusty Washington insiders as you could get.
Because the politicians were all crooked sellouts or cowards who'd sell out your country anyway. Why not vote for the people who stand outside that circle with you? Why not vote for a guy you could totes grab a beer with.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:13:15 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.![]()
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And if you do fight back through the political system like the Republicans have, it will turn increasingly authoritarian and feed into the very same obstructionist death spiral we have witnessed time and time again in Latin American political systems based on our own. I don't have very much hope for the future of democracy in America, but I do not believe every other option has been exhausted yet.
Precisely.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:19:48 PM by CaptainCapsase
I feel like we need to take two different approaches here. The heads of the alt-right and the unapologetic Nazis like Spencer and his ilk need to be met with (metaphorical) force, not given platforms, removed from the conversation. No platform for Fascists and no platform for Nazis.
The people who have been hoodwinked and don't know any better need to be educated. They may have beliefs that are destructive and harmful to others, but it's like people have said - what else are we supposed to do, purge every state below the Mason-Dixon Line? We need to speak strongly and act against the wellsprings of hatred while offering alternatives to the people who are stuck in it. The problem is that that's hard to do with no political power and an opposition that's hellbent on destroying anything and everything that isn't a direct monetary profit to them.
It's been fun.There are two core problems: the Republican political establishment, which doesn't give a damn about the prosperity of some poor white folks in Montana, but wants to line its own pockets and those of its plutocratic sponsors; and the racist white voters who believe themselves to be the victims of decades of economic and political disenfranchisement at the hands of liberals and minorities.
If we could find some way to separate the two, we might be able to win out. Right now, though, Trump is the apotheosis of both worlds.
The third problem, only slightly less serious, is the bloc of left-wing voters who have checked out of the political process because they've bought into the "both sides are equally corrupt" mantra. They are no less vulnerable to demagoguery than the right, as was proven so emphatically by Sanders' campaign.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:24:25 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
They've checked out of the political process because the perception that they have absolutely no agency in the process is absolutely correct for the most part; functional democracy in the United States has been in decline for decades, long before Trump, and this trend probably would have continued under a Clinton presidency at a slower pace than under Trump because until very recently the Beltway bubble did not appear to realize there was even a problem. Now it remains to be seen if it'll begin to dawn on them that they were part of that problem.
Incidentally, as dismissive as you are of Sanders, his "political revolution" is basically the only hope we have right now; without a mass movement that mobilizes the many, many disaffected and disillusioned members of the electorate who have lost faith in our system, there's pretty much no way to come back from the current death spiral towards oligarchy our political system is currently in without removing the current government by force, which is even more likely to end in disaster than fighting Trump's populism with an authentic left-wing alternative.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:45:34 PM by CaptainCapsase
The problem with the 'rule of law' is that, really, what the rule of law means is that the government has a monopoly on violent action. In fact, you could argue this is one of the defining features of states and government, but we'll leave that aside.
In the case of people like Richard Spencer, he has argued for a violent, hateful, genocidal rhetoric of white supremacy and ethnic cleansing that, in fairly recent history, was ruthlessly executed upon mass populations of people. He is arguing for an ideology that has, in no uncertain terms, murdered people to advance the perceived supremacy of the 'white race', a dubious a term as that is.
It is also an ideology that continues to fester if given a platform to spur its hateful bullshit. What liberals in general get wrong is this idea that democracies have some kind of right to self-destruction, that the organs of state shouldn't try to resist fascism if the people themselves voted for fascism, that the dubiously-defined will of the people (in this case, their will to inflict violence and murder on others) is worth more than democratic ideals like rule of law.
So in this case, believing that there's no platform for the kind of hatred Spencer farts out, and knowing the government will do nothing for fear of appearing to be pro-censorship or alienating their white supremacist voters, I have absolutely no sympathy for him when he gets fucking decked, and hope someone will do it again in the future to some of his comrades.
Like, if Stone Cold Steve Austin appeared behind a curtain at the White House and smacked the President over the head with a steel chair, I wouldn't be losing any fuckin' sleep over it either.
'Crime' is always determined by the state. Using recreational drugs that are less harmful to your body and your surroundings than nicotine and alcohol is illegal. Sex work is illegal. Scamming people out of money is fine as long a you're rich, by rule of law. By rule of law, for almost a hundred years, a black person was literally only worth 3/5 of a white person.
The rule of law means nothing if there's no system of ethics behind it.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:53:43 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Rule of law ideally is when both Spencer's assaulter is arrested and he himself is arrested for hate speech. As far as things like the 3/5th's compromise go, whenever possible unjust laws should be changed through legal means like the supreme court and congress rather than extralegal means like a coup d'etat.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:55:15 PM by CaptainCapsase
Donald Trump to declare January 20th as National Day of Patriotic Devotion
Our Constitution is written on parchment, but it lives in the hearts of the American people. There is no freedom where the people do not believe in it; no law where the people do not follow it; and no peace where the people do not pray for it. There are no greater people than the American citizenry, and as long as we believe in ourselves, and our country, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.
NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim January 20, 2017, as National Day of Patriotic Devotion, in order to strengthen our bonds to each other and to our country — and to renew the duties of Government to the people.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twentieth day of January, in the year of our Lord two thousand seventeen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and forty-first.
What the actual fuck?!?!
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:55:21 PM by TacticalFox88
New Survey coming this weekend!

@Capsace: I'm afraid that attitude marks you as part of the problem. "Both sides have a point" is the cancer that allowed the media to get away with exaggerating Clinton's flaws while treating Trump with a sort of childlike fascination, utterly failing to give airtime to issues of policy during the election. There was no reason he should have won otherwise, no matter how many disgruntled racists wanted a fat, rich, reality star to vote for.
We may be entering the time of the autocrat in American politics, but I'll be damned and crucified before I surrender to their ideology in the hopes that they'll decide to play nicely. No, they'll have to kill me first. The alternative is sacrificing the hopes and futures of hundreds of millions of American citizens (indeed, human beings in all countries) on the altar of realpolitik.
Every single time Democrats reach out in the spirit of compromise, they get stabbed in the back. Sooner or later one realizes that there is no good faith to be had from the opposition.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:09:09 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"