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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#168576: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:03:54 PM

@Capsace: I'm afraid that attitude marks you as part of the problem. "Both sides have a point" is the cancer that allowed the media to get away with exaggerating Clinton's flaws while treating Trump with a sort of childlike fascination, utterly failing to give airtime to issues of policy during the election. There was no reason he should have won otherwise, no matter how many disgruntled racists wanted a fat, rich, reality star to vote for.

We may be entering the time of the autocrat in American politics, but I'll be damned and crucified before I surrender to their ideology in the hopes that they'll decide to play nicely. No, they'll have to kill me first. The alternative is sacrificing the hopes and futures of hundreds of millions of American citizens (indeed, human beings in all countries) on the altar of realpolitik.

Every single time Democrats reach out in the spirit of compromise, they get stabbed in the back. Sooner or later one realizes that there is no good faith to be had from the opposition.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:09:09 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#168577: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:05:37 PM

False Equivalence and the Golden Mean Fallacy pretty much fucked our country, huh?

New Survey coming this weekend!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#168578: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:08:30 PM

Has it not been observed in the last few years that Democrats are willing to make compromises, but the GOP doesn't really want to play ball in return?

It takes two to tango. If one side is going to stab you in the back it's very hard to make a compromise in good faith that they will be willing to cooperate with you later down the line.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168579: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:08:50 PM

Fighting Nazis is an American patriotic duty.

Case and point.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#168580: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:10:37 PM

[up][up][up] I would say it was a Combination of Reagansim, 9/11 and the Iraq War that really did it.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:10:46 PM by DingoWalley1

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168581: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:11:48 PM

@Fighteer: I'm not saying both sides have a point, I'm saying the hyperpartisanship of American politics is almost literally strangling the system. We can and MUST find a way around that.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#168582: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:12:37 PM

[up][up]Both Bushes and Reagan were elected on the strength of "feel good" politics that ignored reality, and in all three cases, the media passively went along with the scam.

[up] There is no compromise solution. The other side has declared total war on everything progressive and liberal, and if we don't fight back, they'll win through our collective apathy. If we don't fight back metaphorically, through the political system, it'll be actual war.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:13:42 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168583: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:13:00 PM

[up][up][up] I'd argue it goes back to Vietnam and Nixon - the back-to-back combination of Vietnam, Watergate and the presidency of Jimmy Carter pretty much killed American belief in 'the system.' After that, it became all about being the candidate who seemed to walk outside that system, who was in touch with the 'common man' (whatever that means in a country as diverse as the US), about being as far from the crusty Washington insiders as you could get.

Because the politicians were all crooked sellouts or cowards who'd sell out your country anyway. Why not vote for the people who stand outside that circle with you? Why not vote for a guy you could totes grab a beer with.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:13:15 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#168584: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:16:23 PM

"The common man" is basically just a group of (straight) white people with increasingly reactionary values. Anyone who doesn't share those values is apparently out of touch with "real americans".

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:18:23 PM by Draghinazzo

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168585: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:18:13 PM

[up][up][up] And if you do fight back through the political system like the Republicans have, it will turn increasingly authoritarian and feed into the very same obstructionist death spiral we have witnessed time and time again in Latin American political systems based on our own. I don't have very much hope for the future of democracy in America, but I do not believe every other option has been exhausted yet.

[down] Precisely.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:19:48 PM by CaptainCapsase

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#168586: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:18:51 PM

I feel like we need to take two different approaches here. The heads of the alt-right and the unapologetic Nazis like Spencer and his ilk need to be met with (metaphorical) force, not given platforms, removed from the conversation. No platform for Fascists and no platform for Nazis.

The people who have been hoodwinked and don't know any better need to be educated. They may have beliefs that are destructive and harmful to others, but it's like people have said - what else are we supposed to do, purge every state below the Mason-Dixon Line? We need to speak strongly and act against the wellsprings of hatred while offering alternatives to the people who are stuck in it. The problem is that that's hard to do with no political power and an opposition that's hellbent on destroying anything and everything that isn't a direct monetary profit to them.

It's been fun.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#168587: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:22:26 PM

There are two core problems: the Republican political establishment, which doesn't give a damn about the prosperity of some poor white folks in Montana, but wants to line its own pockets and those of its plutocratic sponsors; and the racist white voters who believe themselves to be the victims of decades of economic and political disenfranchisement at the hands of liberals and minorities.

If we could find some way to separate the two, we might be able to win out. Right now, though, Trump is the apotheosis of both worlds.

The third problem, only slightly less serious, is the bloc of left-wing voters who have checked out of the political process because they've bought into the "both sides are equally corrupt" mantra. They are no less vulnerable to demagoguery than the right, as was proven so emphatically by Sanders' campaign.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:24:25 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#168588: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:30:29 PM

They are no less vulnerable to demagoguery than the right, as was proven so emphatically by Sanders' campaign.

I'd say radicalized, would be a more fitting term, personally.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168589: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:30:59 PM

[up][up] They've checked out of the political process because the perception that they have absolutely no agency in the process is absolutely correct for the most part; functional democracy in the United States has been in decline for decades, long before Trump, and this trend probably would have continued under a Clinton presidency at a slower pace than under Trump because until very recently the Beltway bubble did not appear to realize there was even a problem. Now it remains to be seen if it'll begin to dawn on them that they were part of that problem.

Incidentally, as dismissive as you are of Sanders, his "political revolution" is basically the only hope we have right now; without a mass movement that mobilizes the many, many disaffected and disillusioned members of the electorate who have lost faith in our system, there's pretty much no way to come back from the current death spiral towards oligarchy our political system is currently in without removing the current government by force, which is even more likely to end in disaster than fighting Trump's populism with an authentic left-wing alternative.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:45:34 PM by CaptainCapsase

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#168590: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:46:06 PM

This is the point where I say, They shouldn't have punched Spencer. As funny as that was.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168591: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:46:40 PM

[up] Well yes, assault is a crime, and I believe in the rule of law.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#168592: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:47:53 PM

Meh

Oh really when?
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168593: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:52:19 PM

The problem with the 'rule of law' is that, really, what the rule of law means is that the government has a monopoly on violent action. In fact, you could argue this is one of the defining features of states and government, but we'll leave that aside.

In the case of people like Richard Spencer, he has argued for a violent, hateful, genocidal rhetoric of white supremacy and ethnic cleansing that, in fairly recent history, was ruthlessly executed upon mass populations of people. He is arguing for an ideology that has, in no uncertain terms, murdered people to advance the perceived supremacy of the 'white race', a dubious a term as that is.

It is also an ideology that continues to fester if given a platform to spur its hateful bullshit. What liberals in general get wrong is this idea that democracies have some kind of right to self-destruction, that the organs of state shouldn't try to resist fascism if the people themselves voted for fascism, that the dubiously-defined will of the people (in this case, their will to inflict violence and murder on others) is worth more than democratic ideals like rule of law.

So in this case, believing that there's no platform for the kind of hatred Spencer farts out, and knowing the government will do nothing for fear of appearing to be pro-censorship or alienating their white supremacist voters, I have absolutely no sympathy for him when he gets fucking decked, and hope someone will do it again in the future to some of his comrades.

Like, if Stone Cold Steve Austin appeared behind a curtain at the White House and smacked the President over the head with a steel chair, I wouldn't be losing any fuckin' sleep over it either.

'Crime' is always determined by the state. Using recreational drugs that are less harmful to your body and your surroundings than nicotine and alcohol is illegal. Sex work is illegal. Scamming people out of money is fine as long a you're rich, by rule of law. By rule of law, for almost a hundred years, a black person was literally only worth 3/5 of a white person.

The rule of law means nothing if there's no system of ethics behind it.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:53:43 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168594: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:53:31 PM

[up] Rule of law ideally is when both Spencer's assaulter is arrested and he himself is arrested for hate speech. As far as things like the 3/5th's compromise go, whenever possible unjust laws should be changed through legal means like the supreme court and congress rather than extralegal means like a coup d'etat.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:55:15 PM by CaptainCapsase

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#168595: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:53:58 PM

Donald Trump to declare January 20th as National Day of Patriotic Devotion

A new national pride stirs the American soul and inspires the American heart. We are one people, united by a common destiny and a shared purpose. Freedom is the birthright of all Americans, and to preserve that freedom we must maintain faith in our sacred values and heritage.

Our Constitution is written on parchment, but it lives in the hearts of the American people. There is no freedom where the people do not believe in it; no law where the people do not follow it; and no peace where the people do not pray for it. There are no greater people than the American citizenry, and as long as we believe in ourselves, and our country, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim January 20, 2017, as National Day of Patriotic Devotion, in order to strengthen our bonds to each other and to our country — and to renew the duties of Government to the people.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twentieth day of January, in the year of our Lord two thousand seventeen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and forty-first.

What the actual fuck?!?!

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:55:21 PM by TacticalFox88

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168596: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:56:17 PM

[up] Jesus Christ, this is real. It's also quite possibly a distraction from the more concrete things the Trump administration is likely doing to undermine democratic institutions.

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:57:21 PM by CaptainCapsase

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#168597: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:56:55 PM

[up][up]'Those fuckers don't want to attend my YUUGE inauguration, eh? We'll see about that...'

edited 23rd Jan '17 2:57:15 PM by kkhohoho

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#168598: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:57:08 PM

Jeeesus Christ. I saw that headline and thought it was a joke until now.

See the kind of man you've inflicted upon us, shitheads of America?

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168599: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:58:19 PM

Welcome to the Soviet Union, comrades.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#168600: Jan 23rd 2017 at 2:58:25 PM

Not gonna lie, if the circumstances were different I'd be up for the idea of the inauguration day being a holiday but fuck this noise.

Oh really when?

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