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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
That opinion sounds suspiciously like a mirror of the GOP stance towards people on welfare. Blame the incompetence and greed of state governments (and also sometimes that of federal level lawmakers) for making middle America into the economic and cultural basket case that it is increasingly becoming rather than the people living there, because they genuinely don't know any better.
edited 23rd Jan '17 1:15:00 PM by CaptainCapsase
How about this: I'll stop demonizing them when they stop supporting laws that directly and unquestionably hurt other people.
You are assuming these situations are symmetrical. You are acting as if I dislike them because they're part of an opposing political party as opposed to making my personal identity a hot-button political issue.
I'm not going to say the fall-out of their bad decisions isn't incredibly damaging to themselves and everyone else, or act as if they're absolved of those choices just because they're ill informed.
Let's say two people are having a discussion and one of them is lying. One side calls the other out for lying. The liar accuses the person calling them out of lying too.
To a disinterested third party, they both sound alike. They're both accusing the other of lying.
The difference is that one of them is actually a liar. The fact that they sound alike means precisely nothing.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.So, here it goes. I met with some members of City Council today, not necessarily where I specifically live, but it's close enough to where I feel "part" of the town itself, much like some NJ residents may feel about NYC.
Anyhow, my overall impression is that yes, overall, I'm glad we had the meeting, but we're going to have to warm them up to our more...well, let's just say ambitious ideas, and we'll leave it at that. I'm now trying to establish an actual genuine relationship, whether positive or neutral.
That being said, let's start off with the good. We were treated to a light breakfast; nothing fancy, just some coffee, an assortment of bagels, and some fruit. So, it's me, a couple of guys I know, one female that I was acquainted with, and another guy who I got aquatinted with during a BLM protest in '14. Keep in mind that with the sole exception of the girl, ALL of us are minorities and staunch Democrats.
Meeting starts on-time, so far so good. And we begin discussing things of interest to the community, such as education gaps, gentrification, and housing, zoning laws, etc. It was actually pretty broad, now that I think about it. Everyone knew there was some elephant in the room, but all of chose to ignore it. More on that later.
One of the big problems where I live is that contractors aren't completing their work on the roads in time, and thus traffic is building up early in the morning commutes, around school areas, which creates a dominos effect of having students late for school, missing on important announcements and tests that start early, and parents who drop their kids off, are by affect, late as well, which causes issues with their employer. If said employers fire them for being late enough time, that's one less person the government can get taxes from, which compounds the problem of not being able to have the cash to pay contractors to fix the problem in the first place. This is causing a feedback loop, which has been going on for the past few years, but because locals are damn near completely ignorant of city government inner workings, it flew right under the radar, barely anyone noticing.
As you can probably already guess, this affects poorer (re: darker melanin colored) community, already suffering from wage stagnation, job discrimination, social welfare cuts, and other related issues.
And this is where the conversation went a bit...not necessarily sour, but the atmosphere had definitely changed. They acknowledged the problem, but on the same token, dismissed it underhandedly., saying "My white constituents are experiencing being late too."
Okay, now if this was some Troper on this forum, I'd have had to check some fools, but this fool was an elected official, so I had to be diplomatic about it. I ask him point blank. "And how many of them are in positions of being able to be let go easily?" Obvious implication being that if their in hard-to-come by positions or occupations, how many of their employers are going to be upset enough about the tardiness for it to be a termination worthy offense? I had stumped him, and, he conceded to my point, but still held on to the belief of why should it matter that it affects minorities more. Of course he didn't say that out loud, but any idiot could tell what he meant.
So, before an argument could be started, one of the others intervened an offered a compromise of sorts. Basically, he wants us to go to areas, and see where people are late, and then see if we can find some solutions, other than having contractors do their work faster (which is a separate issue that we don't know the inner machinations of).
Lot of the others agree. Why? Because they think we won't follow through and simply just lay down. See, what a lot of white troopers don't realize and I don't mean this to offend anyone, but we can sort of tell when white people in power are being patronizing especially when they're offering compromises. Their sincere in hearing us out, but they're assuming we won't ask for a follow up meeting.
So...here I am, trying to figure out how regulate traffic in a city full of construction, tearing down of buildings, and infrastructure that's falling apart.
What the fuck did I just get myself into?
New Survey coming this weekend!That's the thing. Capsace, these people are incorrectly informed. They have factually wrong beliefs. They are being told lies. Their political paradigm is inherently self-destructive and causes enormous harm to others. By any quasi-objective, hands-off standard, the effect of adopting the policies they favor would cause incalculable damage to society.
Ergo, whether you think they "deserve a voice" is largely irrelevant, unless you think that democracy is a suicide pact, or that lies should be given equal weight to truth because people believe them strongly.
Regardless, I'm not joining the suicide pact. "Everyone voted to jump off this cliff. I guess I'll jump too. It's the will of the people."
edited 23rd Jan '17 1:43:54 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"No, the Malaise Era is not to be easily forgotten
And yes, the commentors are upset that their website dedicated to covering cars and the car industry is being "so political".
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot@Fox: I don't know, but I will say this - I respect the hell out of the way you're trying to really get involved with local politics. If anything pulls our doomed nation back from the brink, it's enough people doing that.
Seriously, good luck. It sounds like things are getting pretty complicated, so the best advice I can give is to just try your hardest to stay on top of it. And don't let those condescending jackasses discourage you - that's what they want.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."Actually, shaming has worked for quite a while at keeping overt racism and sexism out of our society. It's a great driver of social behavior: one of the key nonviolent mechanisms available to us. The blame for the disaster unfolding before us goes to many places, but one of the most crucial is this paradigm of false centrism, where we must give equal consideration to ideas that do not have equal merit, lest we be accused of "bias".
edited 23rd Jan '17 1:50:12 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
So when you said that the left and the right sound suspiciously similar, what you actually meant was... something else entirely?
Yeah, okay.
edit — looks like the "posting at the same time" bug has hit again. Apologies to
for killing their post. RIP.
edited 23rd Jan '17 1:50:10 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.![]()
So when you said that the left and the right sound suspiciously similar, what you actually meant was... something else entirely?
Yeah, okay.
edit — looks like the "posting at the same time" bug has hit again. Apologies to
for killing their post. RIP.
edited 23rd Jan '17 1:50:10 PM by NativeJovian
1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KVGenerally speaking, demonizing the opposition and simplifying their viewpoints and diversity is a natural human tendency no matter what spectrum of politics you are on, in that regard Capsase isn't necessarily wrong.
The thing is that understanding someone (which is to say, being able to explain their reasoning in the terms that they would use and understanding why they came to hold the beliefs they do) doesn't necessarily mean you are going to sympathize with them or think that they have some sort of valid point.
Speaking on just one issue, a person being scared of gays being able to get married or resenting the fact that they have to deal with women wanting to have actual lives and realize their own ambitions in the same way men do, does not get any sympathy from me.
edited 23rd Jan '17 1:54:59 PM by Draghinazzo
@Fighteer: Shaming works only if you offer a way out; deciding anyone who voted for Trump—or indeed for Republicans in general—has crossed the Moral Event Horizon gives them absolutely no reason not to double down on their convictions, and that particular point of view is quite common on both sides of the aisle.
edited 23rd Jan '17 1:53:40 PM by CaptainCapsase
Well, I don't give a damn, because they are going to wreck our society. Reaching them is beyond my powers. You're welcome to try if you want.
We killed the Nazis; we didn't try to explain to them why they were wrong for murdering the Jews.
edited 23rd Jan '17 1:54:16 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"So would you like for me to lie and say that their views are valid and they aren't messily destroying themselves like an oroborus made of fear?
What should I say? Not tell them that their views are awful and revolve around the dehumanization of other people?
I'm being sincere here. What would you have me do? I understand these people enough to know they won't compromise; they hold views so awful that I can't compromise.
@Fox: And, building on what RBluefish said, understand that them acknowledging that you have a point is an important milestone. It'll make you harder to dismiss in the future. Make no mistake, you've made an important first step.
That said, I'm not sure how much it matters in this specific case? It sounds like argument isn't whether or not the current situation is bad, but what should be done about it. So, sorry if I'm coming across as condescending- I don't mean to- but arguing about who suffers most from something everyone thinks should stop doesn't strike me as terribly constructive.
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Which probably isn't helped by the fact that funding for programs enacted by democrat controlled federal governments frequently get looted and squandered by state level governments in red states, feeding back into their warped perception of the democrats as a pack of snake oil salesmen who will tax them blind and give them back nothing in return but kind words. Hence my focus on state-level lawmakers in these places.
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And they have the very same perception of you. From my perspective however, there is no position that's too horrible to comprise on; the need to compromise is determined by practical realities rather than by ideological convictions, and in this case, these voters unfortunately have a disproportionate amount of power allotted to them via our regressive political system. You can't simply pretend they don't exist, you either need to convince them they're wrong, find a way to stop them from voting, or find a compromise.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:01:20 PM by CaptainCapsase
Speaking of which! Cross posted from the racism thread:
Attack on Alt-Right Leader Has Internet Asking: Is It O.K. to Punch a Nazi?
YES!
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Damn right it is. Hell, even Captain Fucking America punched a fucking Nazi. Oughtta' be a constitutional right.
edited 23rd Jan '17 2:02:48 PM by kkhohoho

Alright:
They're poor. They're scared. The world is changing around them, and leaving them behind. The jobs they know how to do are going or gone, and the new ones are inaccessible. Culture is different, changing- the unacceptable is becoming accepted, the nation is turning its back on everything they understand to be normal and right and proper.
They fear looking up and seeing a world transformed into something alien and terrifyingly beyond their comprehension or control.
And overwhelmingly, they are the authors of their own demise. They choose to embrace ignorance and fear. They choose people who care nothing for them, again and again, because those people tell them the real source of their problem is the other. They are people who will continue to support the people who rob them blind, who would leave them starving and dying on the side of a street without a single twinge of conscience.
I would pity them if they weren't hell-bent on making the lives of so many other people a living hell.