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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#168401: Jan 22nd 2017 at 6:37:19 PM

As for lies, with Trump you pretty much get what you see. We don't like him because of the racist, misogynist, bigoted things he has said, but he pretty much says what he thinks (the Republican Party leadership, by contrast, lies all the time).

Uh, lemme stop you right there.

I feel like I must be misunderstanding, because it sounds like you're saying Trump lies less than other politicians.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#168402: Jan 22nd 2017 at 6:50:17 PM

[up] Yeah, people didn't vote for Trump because he was more honest. They voted for him because he told a pack of lies that they wanted to believe so badly that they shut off the logic centers of their brains that would have told them "hey, this is bullshit".

He only seemed more honest because he was rude and loud.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#168403: Jan 22nd 2017 at 6:53:54 PM

I think it's a matter of intent, and more importantly, performance and attitude.

When most Republicans spout bullshit, they know it's bullshit. I've constantly gotten that impression from people like Mc Connell.

Trump spouts bullshit constantly, but he believes it - or looks like he believes it - as much as the people listening.

He was never "honest," but he was "upfront." It's just that everything he was upfront about was still a lie.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#168404: Jan 22nd 2017 at 6:54:40 PM

[up] Sounds an awful lot like Double Think and/or Believing Their Own Lies.

edited 22nd Jan '17 6:55:59 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#168405: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:05:27 PM

Yes. However, in the case of Trump himself, I am inclined to believe it is more the latter than the former.

Just look at the page quote for Double Think:

"To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself.

That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink."

While a lot of this is profoundly relevant, I do not believe for one second that Trump is capable at any point of being consciously aware of the truth. At most, it is unconsciously, which goes on to motivate his ridiculous insecurity.

edited 22nd Jan '17 7:05:53 PM by Eschaton

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#168406: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:09:57 PM

[up]x6 — As for Hillary being a "deeply flawed candidate"...

Holy Jeezus Fuck, have you taken off your Republican-colored glasses and looked at Trump lately??? I grant you that Hillary may not have been an ideal candidate, but Trump's flaws on an average day are a thousand times worse than Hillary's on her worst day ever.

edited 22nd Jan '17 7:11:08 PM by pwiegle

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#168407: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:11:49 PM

[up] And Trump even shares a lot of HRC's supposed flaws, except worse.

Edit: Damn page-topper.

edited 22nd Jan '17 7:12:05 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#168408: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:12:34 PM

Trump has taken all the accusations against Clinton and mistaken them for the job description.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#168409: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:14:45 PM

[up][up][up]I don't think that poster would disagree with you.

The problem is that Trump was able to sell the idea that he was better to just enough people.

And those people did not put much thought into it, if at all.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#168410: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:23:04 PM

Trump is a snake-oil salesman, and I personally find it truly unbelievable that anyone with an iota of brains and/or common sense would actually buy anything that he's been peddling for the past thirty-five years.

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#168411: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:24:56 PM

[up] The reason they do is because his brand of snake oil is something they really, really want. Deep down, a lot of them know better, but they ignore that little nagging voice of reason because the fantasy, the lie, is so much more appealing than the Awful Truth.

edited 22nd Jan '17 7:25:31 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#168412: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:35:34 PM

Well, I guess that makes me the Anti-Trump, then. Because I don't want anything that Trump thinks is good.

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TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#168414: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:46:12 PM

The legal fight against Donald's conflicts of interest begins (NYT)

WASHINGTON — A team of prominent constitutional scholars, Supreme Court litigators and former White House ethics lawyers intends to file a lawsuit Monday morning alleging that President Trump is violating the Constitution by allowing his hotels and other business operations to accept payments from foreign governments.

The lawsuit is among a barrage of legal actions against the Trump administration that have been initiated or are being planned by major liberal advocacy organizations. Such suits are among the few outlets they have to challenge the administration now that Republicans are in control of the government.

edited 22nd Jan '17 7:51:45 PM by Elle

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#168415: Jan 22nd 2017 at 7:46:14 PM

As for lies, with Trump you pretty much get what you see. We don't like him because of the racist, misogynist, bigoted things he has said, but he pretty much says what he thinks (the Republican Party leadership, by contrast, lies all the time).

Where on Earth are you getting this from? The various fact checking websites put Trump's level of truthfulness at about 25%. He literally gaslights his audience, saying one thing and then, at the next rally, denying that he said it. He makes things up that bear no resemblance to reality as we know it. Before we go any farther, let's address this—where do you get this idea that he doesn't lie?

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#168416: Jan 22nd 2017 at 8:07:41 PM

Everything he has done in the last 24 hours should tell you how honest he is.

Continue writing our story of peace.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#168417: Jan 22nd 2017 at 8:11:20 PM

The first thing of actual substance he did as POTUS was to reverse the previous administration's mortgage rate interest cut for the benefit of big banks and to the detriment of America's middle-class. This after campaigning as the opponent of global elite bankers and the ally of the middle-class. That's how honest he is.

OTOH...HRC gave speeches! tongue

Edit: Hell, he couldn't even keep up the act during the inauguration. He promised that his administration would be "America First", meaning buying American first...while selling MAGA hats at the inauguration which were made in China.

edited 22nd Jan '17 8:15:07 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TropesForever God forbid women do anything from wait where is she Since: Sep, 2016 Relationship Status: I wanna be your dog
God forbid women do anything
#168418: Jan 22nd 2017 at 8:29:48 PM

[up]

Trump: From now on we'll always buy American!

Other guy: This says 'Made in China'!

Trump: No, those left-wing tags are distorting the truth!

thebeatles.com/careers
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#168419: Jan 22nd 2017 at 8:33:03 PM

"The hats weren't made in China, they were made in 'alt-America.'"

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#168420: Jan 22nd 2017 at 8:34:31 PM

[up] Which is morbidly fitting because China today is practically an East Asian surrogate of Gilded Age America.

edited 22nd Jan '17 8:34:45 PM by FluffyMcChicken

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#168421: Jan 22nd 2017 at 8:42:59 PM

Republicans started this era of polarization with Newt and his other cronies in '94, which watered the seed of party identity that was started by Reagan. Because of this, the Right went further off the deep end, causing sensible moderates, centrists, and liberals to distrust them, rightfully so, because of god knows how many reasons. Because liberals distrusted them, and how reactionary they are, they fed into their own echo chambers, when Obama got in power, party politics dictate they must oppose him at every turn and punish those who don't fall in line. Because of this, those who are sensible have no choice but to vote straight ticket Democrat to keep the crazy GOP out of power, and because they're voting Democrat, just as a basic survival net. Polarization increases more, as each side comes to view the other as diametrically opposed to their core values and even "humanity" (and only one side objectively has the moral high ground, but the other deludes itself into thinking it does).

To put in succinctly, We're likely stuck in a polarized negative feedback loop that's going to get far worse, that I doubt even an Invaded States of America could, plausibly fix and if it did it'd be for an extremely EXTREMELY short time.

New Survey coming this weekend!
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#168422: Jan 22nd 2017 at 8:49:03 PM

[up]I addressed that earlier, [1], though I will expand that by suggesting we make a serious effort to maintain perspective; while the GOP as a whole is everything we have said and more besides, they are still human beings, no matter how reprehensible, behind the terms "racist", "bigot", and every other factually correct descriptor. Simply labeling them the "opposition" will lead us down the same path they walk, from the opposite direction.

edited 22nd Jan '17 8:49:55 PM by ViperMagnum357

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#168423: Jan 22nd 2017 at 9:04:07 PM

[up]Sorry, but my sympathy ran out years ago. They'll get no warm, fuzzy feelings from me.

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ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#168424: Jan 22nd 2017 at 9:14:22 PM

[up]This is not about warm fuzzies-I have no sympathy for anyone who cast a vote for Trump, but I will not allow that to blind me to their motives and perceptions-as difficult and repulsive as I find it, I have made an effort to dig through the garbage to find the basest impulses and inclinations. I believe that only by dragging them into the light, to be fully questioned, examined, refuted; and ostracizing the adherents who cling to them in defiance of reason, sanity, and objective reality, can they be destroyed. By the same token, I will not be drawn down to their level, nor will I sink there unknowingly by refusing to acknowledge the uglier parts of myself.

edited 22nd Jan '17 9:15:13 PM by ViperMagnum357

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#168425: Jan 22nd 2017 at 9:17:37 PM

I honestly don't know things are going to go with America going forward. Even if Trump gets booted in 4 years and Russia stops meddling with the elections, the population is still very divided and many of them have lines in the sand they aren't willing to cross. Having a line in the sand is good but obviously we don't think all lines are reasonable or valid, so when you get two groups of people who won't budge and who grow to hate each other more and more, things aren't going to be pretty.


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