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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#168276: Jan 21st 2017 at 8:40:38 PM

First of all, apologies for the delay in this post. It took a while to write, and I also ended up being interrupted halfway through and having to come back an hour or so later, and this thread is moving pretty fast at the moment. For convenience, here's a link back to the original post.

1) In general, the left has failed to listen to the electorate.
If this were true, one would wonder why Clinton got three million more votes than Trump, and that despite widespread voter suppression efforts by the GOP since this was the first presidential election since the Voting Rights Act was gutted by the Supreme Court. Trump won the electoral college by a tiny margin in a handful of key states. He did not win the vote of more Americans than Clinton.

Any narrative that starts with the idea that Trump won the election because he was more popular with the American electorate is starting from false premises.

2) The more you use an insult, the less powerful it becomes.
No, quite the opposite. The more you repeat something, the more people believe it — even if it's not true. This is why Trump was able to brand Clinton a criminal despite it being demonstrably false. Repetition doesn't make something less powerful, it makes something more powerful. Trump understands this and was able to use it to his advantage.

3) Issue politics will forever triumph over identity politics.
This is precisely backwards. Trump's position on issues shift with the winds and are weak to begin with. He has no experience, no plan, no argument to make on the issues. His campaign was identity politics distilled to its very essence. Trump promised to make America great again — meaning that he'll keep decent god-fearing white folks safe from Mexicans, Muslims, and liberals.

Furthermore, whereas Hillary's campaign spent very little time talking about the issues
I've just been hitting the highlights of your points rather than going line by line, but I wanted to address this one specifically. This is entirely and absolutely false. Hillary spoke at great length about her policy positions on specific issues. She provided more details and more coherent plans than Trump did, by a long shot. What happened is that the media didn't cover it. She talked about it, but no one heard it, because everyone was talking about Trump's newest tweet or the latest non-update about emails. The coverage was so completely lopsided that it's insane.

4) 2016 was the year that the mainstream media died.
I actually agree, but not for the reasons you argue. The mainstream media shot themselves in the head by following the entertainment angle rather than the information angle. Make no mistake, the media has a role to play in political discourse — not as a partisan for one side or the other, but as a referee to keep both sides honest. They utterly and completely failed at this. They were more concerned about the appearance of neutrality, rather than actual neutrality, so when Trump made outrageous and demonstrably untrue statements, they said "Trump claims water not wet, Clinton camp disagrees" when what they should be saying is "Trump makes false claim that water not wet". Here's an example of this in action. (For those not clicking links, it's a political writer talking about how he submitted a list of books showing how the GOP had gone off the rails by embracing movement conservatism, and being told he had to include books showing how the Democratic party was crazy as well or else the list couldn't be published.)

Reporting facts as facts and lies as lies is not partisanship, even if it results in one side being branded liars. If they're lying, then they should be branded liars. It cannot be understated how important this is. If the media abandons its responsibility as an uninvolved third party in political discourse, then we're officially living in a post-fact world, and we've always been at war with Eastasia.

5) Never answer Voltaire's prayer. [...] Given that Hillary lost the 2008 primary to Obama because the youth vote overwhelmingly sided with him, it would make sense that she'd try harder to appeal to young voters this time around.
The youth vote went heavily for Clinton. People under 30 voted for Clinton with an 18 point margin. Lower than Obama's margin, yes, but that's true of a lot of demographics, calling out the youth vote specifically seems odd.

6) Never make a martyr out of your enemies. [...] The fact that so many people in politics, the media, the entertainment industry, and business made Trump seem like an underdog fighting against the corrupt establishment regardless of whether or not he deserves that reputation.
The alternative being what? Don't have people endorse you? Don't point out all the things wrong with Trump's candidacy? Or some magical "call him out, but better than Clinton did?

Several things that are hugely important that you failed to mention:

1) The election was influenced by foreign agents.

This sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it's not. Russia hacked the Democratic party and then passed the information they gathered (after altering some of it) to Wikileaks to be made public. This was a deliberate (and ultimately successful) attempt on their part to aid the Trump campaign. This has been confirmed by a large variety of security agencies, including both the entirety of the American intelligence community as well as a variety of non-government groups. The legitimacy of this conclusion is not in doubt.

2) The election was illegally influenced by the FBI.

Executive branch employees are forbidden by federal law from using their position to do anything that would influence an election. This includes things like making public statements regarding candidates. James Comey, director of the FBI, flagrantly violated these rules regarding Clinton. Regardless of whether they were true or not, he made public statements disparaging Clinton's professional judgement in the middle of election season, and then brought the subject up again just days before the election itself — as an "update" on the email case that turned out to be absolutely nothing. It was a deliberate, manufactured October Surprise — one that was all sound and fury, signifying nothing. But it got "HILLARY EMAIL SERVER!!!" in the headlines again while early voting was actively going on, so it served its purpose as far as the GOP was concerned.

3) The electoral college vote was incredibly close; the popular vote was not.

Clinton unambiguously won the national popular vote by millions of votes. Though the electoral college looks lopsided in Trump's favor, in reality, he won by fantastically narrow margins in a handful of key states. Less than one percent in several cases. It's hard to pin down any one single cause for Clinton's loss, because it was so close to begin with — had any of the things stacked against her not been, she almost certainly would have won. Without Russia and Wikileaks, without Comey and the FBI, without the media's utter failure to take a stand for the truth, without decades of sexism working against Clinton and decades of racism working for Trump, if any of those things had been different, Clinton would have won.

Make no mistake. Trump's election is fundamentally illegitimate. He squeaked by after a variety of factors worked in his favor to put their thumbs on the scale — some of them actually illegal, some of them merely unethical. If that sounds like I'm making a dramatic statement, good. It's a dramatic thing to say. But "dramatic" doesn't mean "overstated" or "incorrect". Trump should not be president — not just in the sense that he'll make a terrible president and I fear for the fate of the nation during his term in office (though that's also true), but in the sense that has the election been free, fair, and open as they should have been, he would not have been elected.

That said, he was elected, and now he's president. I'm not suggesting that we throw him out or re-hold the election or anything like that. As much as I might like to, there's no legal framework for it, and that ship has sailed at this point. But we should absolutely keep it in mind going forward. It fundamentally alters the nature of Trump's presidency, and — more importantly — we must guard against it happening again in future elections.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#168277: Jan 21st 2017 at 8:45:00 PM

@Tactical Fox 88: I don't have much to add to that post besides "FUCKING A."

Don't protest him? Screw that. I'll stop protesting his orange fascist ass when they drag him out of the Orange House in cuffs. I do not respect him, I do not accept him, and I will never stop abhorring him and everything he represents.

Also, I love that there are still people expecting him to just suddenly pivot and start acting presidential still. When, exactly, is this magical pivot going to happen? He's been inaugurated, and he's acting barmier than ever before.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#168278: Jan 21st 2017 at 8:47:07 PM

Aziz Ansari just gave a great monologue on SNL about the protests on the day after Trump's inauguration. Basically, it was "we're not going away, so get used to us."

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#168279: Jan 21st 2017 at 8:54:19 PM

Also, I love that there are still people expecting him to just suddenly pivot and start acting presidential still.

I'm wondering what their excuse is going to be when the 4 years are up and he still hasn't gotten his act together.

To me it sounds like a person in denial after their relationship just ended.

"They'll call me back anytime now!!"

"I can get them back, if I just try hard enough!"

At some point you have to accept that things are what they are, even if they're bad. ESPECIALLY if they're bad. Which in this case is, Donald is a miserable little pile of secrets and he's never gonna be anything different from that. It's too late for him.

edited 21st Jan '17 8:57:09 PM by Draghinazzo

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#168280: Jan 21st 2017 at 8:59:17 PM

No man, just watch, he'll really start shaping up once he gets re-elected.

Aaaany second now.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#168281: Jan 21st 2017 at 9:01:41 PM

Bottomline:

Fuck Trump AND his supporters.

We didn't come this far only to come this far.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#168282: Jan 21st 2017 at 9:01:51 PM

@ the UN thing: if the US is so stupid as to pull out of the UN, the UN would probably just move to Geneva because they already have facilities there, and they'd probably just add someone else to the Security Council like, I don't know, Sweden or something. A stable country that's well respected by pretty much everyone.

And with Trump. He's done like one thing of substance since the inauguration, and it was preventing a mortgage rate cut. A move that sort of benefits the banks (who weren't actually protesting it to any meaningful degree) and really hurts middle class people.

edited 21st Jan '17 9:03:55 PM by Zendervai

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#168283: Jan 21st 2017 at 9:09:51 PM

I feel kind of powerless right now. It's not that it's because I'm still just a high schooler, I know friends who went out protesting today. I sat on my ass today. I wish I could help, but I don't know if it's my place to do so.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#168284: Jan 21st 2017 at 9:17:06 PM

You're a citizen of the US, and a patriot to boot. It's absolutely your place to do so. Some are more in danger than others, but this is still everyone's fight.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#168285: Jan 21st 2017 at 9:20:14 PM

[up][up] Just don't forget to vote when the time comes. If this election has taught us anything, it's how much votes do matter.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#168286: Jan 21st 2017 at 9:25:25 PM

[up][up][up]Eh, if you can help contribute to voter outreach programs at a later time, it's OK.

Waiting 2 months for a bad take that's been ripped apart repeatedly in this very thread before this round of rebuttals:

a) See the rebuttals

b) See the rebuttals

"Please don't protest everything":

With all due respect; see the last 8 years of Republican obstructionism. If you think that working with good faith in them is possible, I'd like part of your supply.

On a more mundane note, how is NH pizza?

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#168288: Jan 21st 2017 at 10:57:08 PM

The next four years are going to be as much about how the truth is presented as the truth itself. The election has shown how damaging misinformation can be. I find it supremely hypocritical how often Trump and Trumpling accuse the media of fake news when it was fake news that helped damage Clinton's campaign and allowed Trump to "win" in the first place. Fucking assholes.

Seriously, if you her someone claim anything anti-Trump is just fake news, give'em a good smack in the mouth. You don't get to decide what reality is.

edited 21st Jan '17 10:57:48 PM by StarOutlaw

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#168289: Jan 21st 2017 at 11:12:47 PM

So I caught A Few Good Men being aired on TV, and holy fuck is Colonel Jessep an amalgam of Trump's ego and bigotry, Pence's religious zealotry and fundamentalism, and Matthis' sociopathy and career background.

edited 21st Jan '17 11:14:00 PM by FluffyMcChicken

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#168290: Jan 21st 2017 at 11:31:43 PM

That movie should have ended with Jessep in front of a firing squad... The fact that people find him sympathetic (I refuse to look at the comments section of that video) horrifies me.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Boston Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
#168291: Jan 21st 2017 at 11:47:12 PM

@Dingo Walley, last page:

You don't need to control the media — which, yes, would be a violation of the First Amendment; you simply need to overwhelm it. And in the Internet age, that's appalling easy to do. Anyone with a modicum of skill can create a news website, if simply by serving as an RSS feed for other sources.

The thing is, you don't undermine the truth by creating only one, false alternative; you undermine it by creating dozens of alternatives, each varying slightly more than the last, each tailored toward a different demographic — and, amidst that chaos, one (or more) that put forth your own opinion. And that way, you don't just have fake news, you have fake news that agrees with itself, that has loving admirers saying, why yes, of course that's a fact, and how dare anyone think otherwise!

Meanwhile, you've de-legitimized legitimate news sources, by virtually shouting them down ("virtual" in two, but not three, senses of the word), and, of course, guided loyal followers to the One True Voice. None of which tramples on the First Amendment; except, of course, that all of it does.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#168292: Jan 22nd 2017 at 12:13:47 AM

[up][up]Part of the issue likely stems from how the movie lacks the original play's response:

Kaffee: You trashed the law! But hey, we understand, you're permitted. You have a greater responsibility than we can possibly fathom. You provide us with a blanket of freedom. We live in a world that has walls and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns, and nothing is going to stand in your way of doing it. Not Willie Santiago, not Dawson and Downey, not Markinson, not 1,000 armies, not the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and not the Constitution of the United States! That's the truth isn't it Colonel? I can handle it.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#168294: Jan 22nd 2017 at 12:49:10 AM

[up][up] The entire line has always seemed absurd to me due to the wall in question. It's a wall that's around a bunch of land the US basically stole from the Cuban people. The base at Gitmo doesn't protect the US, Cuba isn't a threat to the US.

That wall doesn't protect anyone in the US from any threat.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#168295: Jan 22nd 2017 at 1:10:51 AM

In Germany, there are actually rules how much coverage each party gets (meaning each party gets exactly the same number of advertising spots, no matter how big or small they are), how much money they are allowed to spend and the source of the money, when the election campaign is allowed to start, when and where the posters are allowed to be shown (not too close to the ballots), and the news is supposed to cover the major parties as fairly as possible. The first time I saw an American Election I was frankly shocked.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#168296: Jan 22nd 2017 at 1:16:58 AM

American Politics is a shitshow.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#168297: Jan 22nd 2017 at 1:21:03 AM

[up] Which I guess played a role in a POS becoming POTUS.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#168298: Jan 22nd 2017 at 1:39:27 AM

[up][up]The German System, if tried to implement here, the Supreme Court would shoot it down damn near immediately.

New Survey coming this weekend!
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#168299: Jan 22nd 2017 at 1:39:57 AM

I think that more than anything else this series of events has resulted in people desperately trying to pretend Donald Trump somehow represents the will of the people, and not just the will of the select white people who managed, through intimidation and gerrymandering, to force him upon the nation.

Basically, he groped the United States of America.

We see people talk about how Hillary Clinton "repulsed" people with "southern morals and values". To them I say - what morals and values? The values of the Klan? The morals of the whites only country club?

This entire show he made the inauguration into has done nothing but show him as a two bit wannabe dictator with legions of suicidal and moronic supporters. And no, I am not going to stop insulting his supporters - we're gonna need a bigger basket for all these deplorable lunatics.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#168300: Jan 22nd 2017 at 1:49:35 AM

You know, I'm going to keep it real: the only reason American democracy is so vulnerable to fascism and authoritarianism is that conservative ideology is littered with anti-intellectualism and most are quite frankly, goddamn idiots.

edited 22nd Jan '17 2:07:25 AM by TacticalFox88

New Survey coming this weekend!

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