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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

cerebralTheatrics Since: Nov, 2013
#168226: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:13:48 PM

This was basically white backlash to minorities having the audacity to think they were equal to white America by electing the Country's first black President.

More white people voted for Obama than for Trump. (source: http://news.asiaone.com/news/world/exploding-poor-white-myth-trumps-rise-power)

Most people are not racist. Aside from Clinton's flaws, what ultimately drove the election, as far as I can tell, is the fact that Trump was promising to fix the economy and bring jobs to the United States. I sincerely doubt that he'll be able to do so, but unemployment and underemployment is a major concern in the United States right now, as workforce participation is down and so is average income.

I would also like to add that anti-illegal immigration does not equal anti-immigrant or anti-Mexican. Closer monitoring and security of the border does not imply total closing of the border, and few people will cite "I just don't like Mexicans," as the reason why they want tighter border security.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:19:16 PM by cerebralTheatrics

“Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.”
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168227: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:19:22 PM

[up] Racism was a major factor in the election, there's no denying that, but trying to frame things exclusively in terms of racism is just as wrong as framing it exclusively in economic terms.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:19:28 PM by CaptainCapsase

PhilosopherStones Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm from The North (lots of planets have them) (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm
#168228: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:19:48 PM

[up][up][up]I was goin' for more of a "Endangerment of innocent bystanders" angle.

Anybody who lights a limo on fire is not concerned with the well-bein' of those around them.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:20:04 PM by PhilosopherStones

GIVE ME YOUR FACE
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168229: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:20:05 PM

[up][up][up] More people voted in the 2008 and 2012 elections - what about proportionality?

Also, 'most people aren't racist' ignores the point that racism is structural. Most people aren't racist, but the systems they perpetuate are racist, and fixing the middle-class economy isn't going to fix that. Also, having a robust, middle-class centered welfare state isn't some magic cure-all to fascism.

I'm not touching the immigration issue aside from the fact that the border isn't the problem - most illegal immigrants get into the country legally and simply 'forget' to renew their visas or return home when it happens. Increased border security isn't going to fix that, nor is it going to fix the usual dogwhistle problem (i.e drug smuggling) because it's not a route that actually gets used for that.

Source: Literally All of Western Europe Right Now Jesus Christ It's Terrible.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:22:17 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#168230: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:20:43 PM

Most people are pretty racist, actually. It just comes in varying degrees. Few if any people are actually entirely non-racist.

FUN FACT: People can even be racist against a demographic that they, themselves, occupy. It's called internalized categorism and it often gets mistaken for "not racist". For instance, it's a popular myth that if Group X also believes Y assumption about Group X, then that assumption can't be racist. Because they believe it too.

There was a study in the Law Officer thread a while back about how police officers are more likely to assume violent intent from a black suspect than a white suspect, a trend that remained true even when black officers were studied instead of white officers. Both black and white officers believe that black people are more violent than white people.

Some see this as proof that believing black people are inherently violent is not a racist belief, but it means nothing of the sort. It simply means that those black officers carry an internally categorized belief.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#168231: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:21:36 PM

[up]x5 Might that have to do with this election having a lower turnout than the past two.

And really, it's hard to match Obama's sheer popularity.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:22:21 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168232: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:21:50 PM

[up][up][up] The welfare states in Europe have been hollowed out by idiotic austerity programs enacted in response to the 2008 recession. Had their fiscal policy been more sensible, it's very likely the populist wave would be far more muted in Europe than it is now. Add to that the issue of Europe being quite a bit more racist than the United States; as bad as things are here, the United States has had a large minority population for the entirety of its existence, which has forced us to confront that particular demon to a much greater extent than the relatively homogeneous states Europe.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:24:22 PM by CaptainCapsase

cerebralTheatrics Since: Nov, 2013
#168233: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:23:13 PM

[up] It is an unfortunate reality that racists do indeed still exist and their racism will drive their voting decision more often than not. That said, we have a tendency to overestimate their numbers because they get so much media attention. It's the spotlight effect at work.

“Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.”
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168234: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:24:10 PM

[up][up] The populist movements started way before the idiotic austerity measures. While the Danish Peoples' Party, in all its racist dogwhistle-y glory, only started really getting traction in the mid-2000's, they were already a decisive factor in the elections of 2000 and 2004 purely on the basis of immigration. Even before the 9/11 attacks they were constantly attacking the influx of Turkish and Bosnian Muslim workers.

This problem has been here far, far longer than the 2008 austerity measures. It simply kicked it into high gear.

Also, combing over Europe like that is ignoring states that have had a strong minority presence for quite some time, like Spain or Greece (back when there was the eternal pissing contest with the Ottoman Empire going on), or states like Bosnia that have a significant Muslim population owing to Ottoman expansion in the area. The British have had a quite sizable black and Indian population dating back to their colonial ventures. The French have had a pretty sizable black population owing to its proximity to North Africa in recent years, but again, colonialism meant quite a few black people have lived in France as well.

The difference (largely) between Europe and America is that Europe is less institutionally racist, but has a much larger racist population, whereas the US has a lot of racist power structures left that have been weeded out of Europe to a much greater extent.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:27:49 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168235: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:25:14 PM

[up] It's been a problem, but they weren't on the verge of taking power all across the continent and causing the collapse of the EU until relatively recently. The problem was there, but it was under control for the most part.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:28:32 PM by CaptainCapsase

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#168236: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:27:45 PM

For the record, while the rise of the right in a number of countries is worrisome, most of those parties have no chance whatsoever to actually take over the country in question. In addition, those parties are not necessarily Anti-EU...most are, but not all of them.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168237: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:28:39 PM

[up][up] Yes, but again, it presupposes that healthy economics is some kind of magic cure to far-right extremism, which it isn't.

Honestly, I think a far bigger problem is a breakdown of trust between the public and its political class, but I can elaborate more on that when it isn't 2:30 in the morning and I really should be sleeping.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:29:55 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
majoraoftime (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#168238: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:31:38 PM

all i have to say is this: i laughed when i saw richard spencer get decked

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168239: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:31:46 PM

[up][up] It's not a magic cure all, but it's definitely a way of mitigating the attraction of extremist parties, and it's something that's likely to gain significant support across demographic lines in times of crisis, in contrast to an effort to restructure institutions to be genuinely inclusive, which is hard enough even without massive social unrest which is partially caused by issues unrelated to that.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:32:44 PM by CaptainCapsase

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#168240: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:34:20 PM

To be fair, I think healthy economics would have diminished the far right enough to keep this stuff from happening in the first place. It's not a cure, but the extremes of either side tend to take power in the worst economic cases. There probably would have been far fewer votes for the original Nazis if Germany hadn't been suffering the economic crises brought about by the end of WW 1. And Trump wouldn't have gained enough traction to win by either margin if the economy hadn't been at the heart of our troubles.

ETA: Great minds think alike. Bravo on the ninja.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:35:11 PM by Journeyman

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#168241: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:36:37 PM

"WE ARE POWERLESS, WE ARE POWERLESS!"

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#168242: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:55:58 PM

It is an unfortunate reality that racists do indeed still exist and their racism will drive their voting decision more often than not. That said, we have a tendency to overestimate their numbers because they get so much media attention. It's the spotlight effect at work.

To unpack this a bit:

You don't have to an avowed white supremacist to be racist, or to get more to the point, to say or do things that propagate racism or carry racist implications.

I do not necessarily believe that all of the people that voted for Trump are super racist, though I think a frightening amount of them are.

But by voting for Trump, they have contributed to validating his racism and all the other horrible things that he stands for, when there were other options that were available which would not have done that. They have, at best, said that this is permissible.

The thing about prejudice is that it's extremely insidious. Nobody thinks that they are prejudiced because nobody believes things they think are false and they don't like to think that their feelings are invalid.

It takes a lot of self-reflection, discomfort and willingness to question yourself to acknowledge that you might be prejudiced in some way.

I mean, it's not really surprising since our society conditions us to be that way. Holding some racist beliefs or assumptions can and often does say more about the environment and system you were raised in than it does about you personally. So in that sense, it's not some unsurmountable flaw.

Problem is that working to get better is hard. It's much easier to deny, obfuscate, or rationalize.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:57:01 PM by Draghinazzo

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#168243: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:56:33 PM

Regarding the NSA's powers to read your emails- yes, of course they have to get permission from the FISA court. You think they cant get it? Or that they wont seek to weaken privacy protections? For those of you who think I'm exaggerating- read this, and this,

edited 21st Jan '17 6:03:18 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168244: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:56:41 PM

[up][up][up][up] The whole 'Germany was in economic crisis after WW 1' is an oversimplification. Again, will explain after sleep.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:57:28 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168245: Jan 21st 2017 at 6:01:27 PM

[up] Well yeah, but when the Nazis won a plurality in the Reichstag, that was at the height of the great depression, which hit Germany hard.

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#168246: Jan 21st 2017 at 6:01:36 PM

Math: It wasn't the whole thing, but still significant. That race was a close call and the Nazis had an economic platform as part of their package. Without the need for one and them providing it, it's unlikely they would have won even with the other factors.

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#168247: Jan 21st 2017 at 6:25:53 PM

@cerebralTheatrics:

1) In general, the left has failed to listen to the electorate. This is the big one. I could end this post right here because there is no better way to describe the reason behind Trump's victory. I tried thinking of a way I could best illustrate the matter, but then I realized that I didn't have to, as Hillary did a remarkable job of doing it for me with her infamous "basket of deplorables" speech. In it, she dismissed a quarter of the voting population's concerns as illegitimate; according to her, a quarter of voters are fueled by nothing more than bigotry of some form, and consequently, their worries about the state of the country aren't founded in reality. You see this happen all the time. Do you have a problem with illegal immigration? It won't be long before you are branded a racist. Are you worried about Islamic terrorism? See how long it takes before someone calls you an Islamophobe. Distressingly often nowadays, when left-wing politicians aren't being willfully ignorant of the electorate's worries, they use thought-terminating cliches, insults, and buzzwords to bring an abrupt end to the discussion. Contrast this Donald Trump. Whether he was being genuine or not, he was at least acknowledging the problems people have with the state of the country. You might think the his supporters' worries were unfounded. Fair enough, but being willing to address the concerns of the electorate will get one further than denying their legitimacy. All along the campaign trail, Hillary seemed oblivious to the people's concerns at best and callously flippant at worst. I firmly believe that had Bernie Sanders had been Trump's opponent instead of Hillary, Trump wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance in hell. It would've been the biggest political beatdown since 1984. Like Trump, Bernie actually listened to the public and addressed real concerns that they had, but he had the advantage of being far more stable and in touch with reality than Trump. In the end, this wasn't truly a battle of left versus right; it was a battle of populism versus establishment.

See, the problem here is that more people from the working class voted for Hillary than Trump. Now, what you seem to be suggesting here is that the Democrats should actually try to appeal to Trump's supporters. That is not what they should be doing. Regardless of their economic standing, they seriously have proven themselves to either be driven by hatred; they don't want any of the Democrats' policies in spite of the fact that they really would help them, just because they think those darn minorities will get everything from the liberals. I also question you're belief that the concern of Trump voters are based in reality, as so many coal miners spoke out against Hillary for pointing out that their jobs was becoming increasingly worthless. Thing is, she's right. While the drive for clean energy is a part of it, the one major reason coal miners-along with those like auto workers-are increasingly losing their jobs is because we have machines, which don't get black lung and die from being in a coal mine. If you ask me, that is showing concern for the coal miners; she was trying to tell them that they shouldn't stick around with that industry because it's an increasingly opportunity-less one. But I think where you really show your true colors is when you say, "They call us racist for criticizing immigration/Islamic terrorism!" Sorry, but it looks like you're the one who's out of touch here. This is exactly what the alt-righters like Milo say when people call them out on their horseshit. Do you not realize that the people who are attacked for criticizing illegal immigration and Islamic terrorism are attacked because they're not actually doing that? They are the people who call Mexicans lazy and freeloaders who are only good for cutting grass; they are the people who say Muslims are all America-haters who are just naturally bloodthirsty. Moreover, your belief that the left just says shit like "check your privilege!" is yet another alt-right trademark, a complete stereotype used to paint the left-especially Democrats-as unintelligent idealists. Oh wait, did you here about the right winger who tried to stump his opponent by calling him a cuck? We'll report on it at 5, when we'll also cover how Bernie Sanders lost. Oh hey, that's right, it's because unlike Hillary, he didn't directly address the discriminatory causes of thing like economic disadvantage, he just kept talking about the economic disadvantage as if though it were a problem all by itself. No wonder he lost.

2) The more you use an insult, the less powerful it becomes. Look at all the attacks on Trump, both issued by Hillary, her supporters, and the mainstream media. Almost all of them are attacks on Trump's character. Accusations of racism, sexism, and Islamophobia were and still are everywhere. There was only one problem with this tactic: fewer and fewer people are taking accusations of this nature seriously. We live in a world were air conditioning and sitting are called sexist, braided hair is called racist, and criticism of a religion is equated with hating said religion. When everything is racist/sexist/etc., nothing is. Few people were moved by these accusations because people have come to expect that everything will eventually be called bigoted by someone.

Right off the bat, this is wrong. If the more you use an insult, the less powerful it becomes, then how did Trump come out on top? He used the most basic, childish insults like "loser", not to mention truly repulsive ones like how he insult Megyn Kelly by saying she was crazy because she was on her period. How is that any better or even equal to pointing out that what Trump was saying was actually racist, sexist, and Islamophobic? Once again, you rely on complete nonsense to try to prop up your view that these are no longer huge issues like saying that people are calling air condition and sitting sexist (I don't know where the hell you're getting this) and once again, the belief that simply criticizing Islam gets you called an Islamophobe. Se the first point for how that view of it is ignorant of how it actually goes.

3) Issue politics will forever triumph over identity politics. Now, contrast this with Trump. Now, was guilty of attacking Hillary's character just as she was guilty of attacking his, but he was focusing on her actions rather than her words. When he called her corrupt, there was certifiable proof of her shady dealings with foreign governments and companies that backed up this accusation. People were more disturbed by what Hillary had done than by what Trump had said. Furthermore, whereas Hillary's campaign spent very little time talking about the issues, Trump spent quite a bit of time talking about them. Most people care more about immigration reform, foreign policy, and the economy more than they care about mean words.

Guys, do we have to do this every other day? Do we have to keep explaining to people how Hillary actually focused more on foreign policy and the economy than Trump, who wouldn't stop talking about building a wall to keep goshdarn Mexican criminals out of the country, temporarily banning Muslims from entering the country, and had seriously brought up the idea of punishing women who got an abortion? Of course, if you want to explain how "piss off out Allies and China while kissing Russia's ass" is an even halfway good foreign policy, then please, go right ahead. Also, please explain how Clinton's use of a private server to do her job and how there turned out to be nothing special in her speeches to businesses was somehow worse than a video of Trump bragging about sexually assaulting a woman and insulting a disabled reporter. If you're horrified by Clinton, then you have some seriously skewed priorities.

4) 2016 was the year that the mainstream media died. Nothing that the MSM could've said would've helped or hurt either camp. After all of the shoddy journalism done by CNN, MSNBC, and ABC, nobody gives a damn about what they have to say about anything anymore. Everyone expects them to use manipulative editing, lies by omission, and outright falsehoods to push an agenda. It's really, really pathetic when FOX news was the least terrible news station this year. First time for everything, I suppose.
OK, I'm really gonna have to call you out on this. You're being ignorant as fuck. How the hell can you say that the MSM was trying to push an agenda when Fox News are a goddamn right wing propaganda machine? And they have been since the beginning, so unless you've been living under a rock, there is no excuse for this kind of hypocrisy and outright ignorance. Fox was also pushing an agenda, but theirs was in support of Trump and all of the laughably obvious/visible bile he and his supporters were spewing on a daily basis. Polite-fully speaking, get your head out of your ass.
5) Never answer Voltaire's prayer. "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." -Voltaire Given that Hillary lost the 2008 primary to Obama because the youth vote overwhelmingly sided with him, it would make sense that she'd try harder to appeal to young voters this time around. She went about doing this in the worst way imaginable. Through frequent and usually incorrect usage of outdated memes and slang, she successfully turned herself into a laughingstock in many circles. Trump made use of memes, too, but he used them much more sparingly. Let us also not forget that Hillary got Pepe the Frog classified as a hate symbol. I know that sounds like an article from The Onion, but no, it actually happened. Everyone involved in the process took an serious hit to their credibility, as making memes a political issue is something only truly absurd person would try to do.
I'll admit that you have a point about Hillary's attempts to use memes, but at the same time, you're ignoring how Trump himself is a walking, talking meme, and has been since the 80's. Not to mention how his campaign and supporters definitely relied on memes, which renders that point of yours completely moot. The "Bernie Or Hillary" meme, which painted her as a simple-minded moron, and goes back tot hat idea of Hillary not being able to be judged on the same scale as her male compatriots. As for Pepe...well, there is actually a damn good reason why Clinton's campaign stood against it and why it was classified as a hate symbol. Courtesy of the white nationalist who actually started Pepe's use as a symbol of the alt-right:
...an actual campaign to reclaim Pepe from normies.
[Pepe the Frog] belongs to us, and we’ll make him toxic if we have to.
6) Never make a martyr out of your enemies. All constant attacks on Trump by numerous people of importance had the opposite effect of what many of his opponents had hoped for. It only served to make him more sympathetic in the eyes of voters. The fact that so many people in politics, the media, the entertainment industry, and business made Trump seem like an underdog fighting against the corrupt establishment regardless of whether or not he deserves that reputation. The violence incited at Trump rallies by his opponents also made his supporters as an oppressed political movement. Again, whether or not they deserve this reputation is irrelevant. I think that about covers it. Where do we go from here? I don't know. I'm inclined to believe that Trump won't get much done during his presidency. I doubt he realizes what he has gotten himself into, and most of his campaign promises will go unfulfilled. If you're a Trump supporter, don't set your hopes too high. If you're an opponent of Trump, relax. The world isn't ending. Trump doesn't have the authority to do most of the things he said he'll do, and since most of his party hates him, the more extreme promises he made will probably get blocked.
Holy shit, this just smacks of ignorance and disregard. "Hey, you women and minorities! Stop your whining! Nothing's gonna happen!" Do you not know that it's not just Trump as president? The Republicans are in control of both the House and the Senate, and there's a high chance they'll gain control of the Supreme Court as well. This is a party whose platform seriously endorses gay conversion therapy. Not to mention who Trumps VP is. He definitely has the authority to make this country Hell on Earth for women and racial/sexual minorities. And if you think Trump is actually anti-establishment...Jesus, do we constantly have to go over this too? Trump got everything he has from his daddy. He's filled his Cabinet with the same corporate lobbyists and plutocrats that would rather piss on the working class than lend them a helping hand, people who have been consultants for companies like Verizon, Visa, and Coca-Cola. Wait,w hat? Trump wants to repeal the Affordable Care Act. Yeah, suck it, establishment...oh wait, we don't have healthcare anymore.

As for the violence from the opposition-this is a matter of personal opinion, really, but I'm inclined to say that, even if Trump's opposition started it, they probably would have still been attacked if they didn't throw the first strike. But what about that protester who got shot? What about those guys that nearly beat a Mexican man to death? What about all the times protesters at Trump rallies got attacked just for protesting? Surely, those are just outliers, amirite?

edited 21st Jan '17 7:04:09 PM by SciFiSlasher

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#168248: Jan 21st 2017 at 6:40:54 PM

I've been watching the Women's Marches coverage over the various news networks and I'm feeling pretty inspired.

Trump's press secretary trying to rewrite history was less than inspiring, though.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#168249: Jan 21st 2017 at 6:48:55 PM

2) The more you use an insult, the less powerful it becomes.

... Did the person who made this not pay any attention to Trump at all?

carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#168250: Jan 21st 2017 at 6:51:51 PM

I think Trump spewed out such a variety at such a pace that everyone became deadened to them.


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