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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
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More people voted in the 2008 and 2012 elections - what about proportionality?
Also, 'most people aren't racist' ignores the point that racism is structural. Most people aren't racist, but the systems they perpetuate are racist, and fixing the middle-class economy isn't going to fix that. Also, having a robust, middle-class centered welfare state isn't some magic cure-all to fascism.
I'm not touching the immigration issue aside from the fact that the border isn't the problem - most illegal immigrants get into the country legally and simply 'forget' to renew their visas or return home when it happens. Increased border security isn't going to fix that, nor is it going to fix the usual dogwhistle problem (i.e drug smuggling) because it's not a route that actually gets used for that.
Source: Literally All of Western Europe Right Now Jesus Christ It's Terrible.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:22:17 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.Most people are pretty racist, actually. It just comes in varying degrees. Few if any people are actually entirely non-racist.
FUN FACT: People can even be racist against a demographic that they, themselves, occupy. It's called internalized categorism and it often gets mistaken for "not racist". For instance, it's a popular myth that if Group X also believes Y assumption about Group X, then that assumption can't be racist. Because they believe it too.
There was a study in the Law Officer thread a while back about how police officers are more likely to assume violent intent from a black suspect than a white suspect, a trend that remained true even when black officers were studied instead of white officers. Both black and white officers believe that black people are more violent than white people.
Some see this as proof that believing black people are inherently violent is not a racist belief, but it means nothing of the sort. It simply means that those black officers carry an internally categorized belief.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
x5 Might that have to do with this election having a lower turnout than the past two.
And really, it's hard to match Obama's sheer popularity.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:22:21 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!![]()
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The welfare states in Europe have been hollowed out by idiotic austerity programs enacted in response to the 2008 recession. Had their fiscal policy been more sensible, it's very likely the populist wave would be far more muted in Europe than it is now. Add to that the issue of Europe being quite a bit more racist than the United States; as bad as things are here, the United States has had a large minority population for the entirety of its existence, which has forced us to confront that particular demon to a much greater extent than the relatively homogeneous states Europe.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:24:22 PM by CaptainCapsase
It is an unfortunate reality that racists do indeed still exist and their racism will drive their voting decision more often than not. That said, we have a tendency to overestimate their numbers because they get so much media attention. It's the spotlight effect at work.
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The populist movements started way before the idiotic austerity measures. While the Danish Peoples' Party, in all its racist dogwhistle-y glory, only started really getting traction in the mid-2000's, they were already a decisive factor in the elections of 2000 and 2004 purely on the basis of immigration. Even before the 9/11 attacks they were constantly attacking the influx of Turkish and Bosnian Muslim workers.
This problem has been here far, far longer than the 2008 austerity measures. It simply kicked it into high gear.
Also, combing over Europe like that is ignoring states that have had a strong minority presence for quite some time, like Spain or Greece (back when there was the eternal pissing contest with the Ottoman Empire going on), or states like Bosnia that have a significant Muslim population owing to Ottoman expansion in the area. The British have had a quite sizable black and Indian population dating back to their colonial ventures. The French have had a pretty sizable black population owing to its proximity to North Africa in recent years, but again, colonialism meant quite a few black people have lived in France as well.
The difference (largely) between Europe and America is that Europe is less institutionally racist, but has a much larger racist population, whereas the US has a lot of racist power structures left that have been weeded out of Europe to a much greater extent.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:27:49 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.![]()
Yes, but again, it presupposes that healthy economics is some kind of magic cure to far-right extremism, which it isn't.
Honestly, I think a far bigger problem is a breakdown of trust between the public and its political class, but I can elaborate more on that when it isn't 2:30 in the morning and I really should be sleeping.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:29:55 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.![]()
It's not a magic cure all, but it's definitely a way of mitigating the attraction of extremist parties, and it's something that's likely to gain significant support across demographic lines in times of crisis, in contrast to an effort to restructure institutions to be genuinely inclusive, which is hard enough even without massive social unrest which is partially caused by issues unrelated to that.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:32:44 PM by CaptainCapsase
To be fair, I think healthy economics would have diminished the far right enough to keep this stuff from happening in the first place. It's not a cure, but the extremes of either side tend to take power in the worst economic cases. There probably would have been far fewer votes for the original Nazis if Germany hadn't been suffering the economic crises brought about by the end of WW 1. And Trump wouldn't have gained enough traction to win by either margin if the economy hadn't been at the heart of our troubles.
ETA: Great minds think alike. Bravo on the ninja.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:35:11 PM by Journeyman
To unpack this a bit:
You don't have to an avowed white supremacist to be racist, or to get more to the point, to say or do things that propagate racism or carry racist implications.
I do not necessarily believe that all of the people that voted for Trump are super racist, though I think a frightening amount of them are.
But by voting for Trump, they have contributed to validating his racism and all the other horrible things that he stands for, when there were other options that were available which would not have done that. They have, at best, said that this is permissible.
The thing about prejudice is that it's extremely insidious. Nobody thinks that they are prejudiced because nobody believes things they think are false and they don't like to think that their feelings are invalid.
It takes a lot of self-reflection, discomfort and willingness to question yourself to acknowledge that you might be prejudiced in some way.
I mean, it's not really surprising since our society conditions us to be that way. Holding some racist beliefs or assumptions can and often does say more about the environment and system you were raised in than it does about you personally. So in that sense, it's not some unsurmountable flaw.
Problem is that working to get better is hard. It's much easier to deny, obfuscate, or rationalize.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:57:01 PM by Draghinazzo
Regarding the NSA's powers to read your emails- yes, of course they have to get permission from the FISA court. You think they cant get it? Or that they wont seek to weaken privacy protections? For those of you who think I'm exaggerating- read this
, and this
,
edited 21st Jan '17 6:03:18 PM by DeMarquis
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.![]()
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The whole 'Germany was in economic crisis after WW 1' is an oversimplification. Again, will explain after sleep.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:57:28 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.@cerebralTheatrics:
See, the problem here is that more people from the working class voted for Hillary than Trump. Now, what you seem to be suggesting here is that the Democrats should actually try to appeal to Trump's supporters. That is not what they should be doing. Regardless of their economic standing, they seriously have proven themselves to either be driven by hatred; they don't want any of the Democrats' policies in spite of the fact that they really would help them, just because they think those darn minorities will get everything from the liberals
. I also question you're belief that the concern of Trump voters are based in reality, as so many coal miners spoke out against Hillary for pointing out that their jobs was becoming increasingly worthless. Thing is, she's right. While the drive for clean energy is a part of it, the one major reason coal miners-along with those like auto workers-are increasingly losing their jobs is because we have machines, which don't get black lung and die from being in a coal mine. If you ask me, that is showing concern for the coal miners; she was trying to tell them that they shouldn't stick around with that industry because it's an increasingly opportunity-less one. But I think where you really show your true colors is when you say, "They call us racist for criticizing immigration/Islamic terrorism!" Sorry, but it looks like you're the one who's out of touch here. This is exactly what the alt-righters like Milo say when people call them out on their horseshit. Do you not realize that the people who are attacked for criticizing illegal immigration and Islamic terrorism are attacked because they're not actually doing that? They are the people who call Mexicans lazy and freeloaders who are only good for cutting grass; they are the people who say Muslims are all America-haters who are just naturally bloodthirsty. Moreover, your belief that the left just says shit like "check your privilege!" is yet another alt-right trademark, a complete stereotype used to paint the left-especially Democrats-as unintelligent idealists. Oh wait, did you here about the right winger who tried to stump his opponent by calling him a cuck? We'll report on it at 5, when we'll also cover how Bernie Sanders lost. Oh hey, that's right, it's because unlike Hillary, he didn't directly address the discriminatory causes of thing like economic disadvantage, he just kept talking about the economic disadvantage as if though it were a problem all by itself. No wonder he lost.
Right off the bat, this is wrong. If the more you use an insult, the less powerful it becomes, then how did Trump come out on top? He used the most basic, childish insults like "loser", not to mention truly repulsive ones like how he insult Megyn Kelly by saying she was crazy because she was on her period. How is that any better or even equal to pointing out that what Trump was saying was actually racist, sexist, and Islamophobic? Once again, you rely on complete nonsense to try to prop up your view that these are no longer huge issues like saying that people are calling air condition and sitting sexist (I don't know where the hell you're getting this) and once again, the belief that simply criticizing Islam gets you called an Islamophobe. Se the first point for how that view of it is ignorant of how it actually goes.
Guys, do we have to do this every other day? Do we have to keep explaining to people how Hillary actually focused more on foreign policy and the economy than Trump, who wouldn't stop talking about building a wall to keep goshdarn Mexican criminals out of the country, temporarily banning Muslims from entering the country, and had seriously brought up the idea of punishing women who got an abortion? Of course, if you want to explain how "piss off out Allies and China while kissing Russia's ass" is an even halfway good foreign policy, then please, go right ahead. Also, please explain how Clinton's use of a private server to do her job and how there turned out to be nothing special in her speeches to businesses was somehow worse than a video of Trump bragging about sexually assaulting a woman and insulting a disabled reporter. If you're horrified by Clinton, then you have some seriously skewed priorities.
As for the violence from the opposition-this is a matter of personal opinion, really, but I'm inclined to say that, even if Trump's opposition started it, they probably would have still been attacked if they didn't throw the first strike. But what about that protester who got shot? What about those guys that nearly beat a Mexican man to death? What about all the times protesters at Trump rallies got attacked just for protesting? Surely, those are just outliers, amirite?
edited 21st Jan '17 7:04:09 PM by SciFiSlasher
"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."

More white people voted for Obama than for Trump. (source: http://news.asiaone.com/news/world/exploding-poor-white-myth-trumps-rise-power)
Most people are not racist. Aside from Clinton's flaws, what ultimately drove the election, as far as I can tell, is the fact that Trump was promising to fix the economy and bring jobs to the United States. I sincerely doubt that he'll be able to do so, but unemployment and underemployment is a major concern in the United States right now, as workforce participation is down and so is average income.
I would also like to add that anti-illegal immigration does not equal anti-immigrant or anti-Mexican. Closer monitoring and security of the border does not imply total closing of the border, and few people will cite "I just don't like Mexicans," as the reason why they want tighter border security.
edited 21st Jan '17 5:19:16 PM by cerebralTheatrics
“Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.”