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pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#168201: Jan 21st 2017 at 3:23:27 PM

Beavis And Butthead have been described (by their creators, no less) as "two kids who don't have half a brain between them."

Trump has fewer active brain cells than that pair of morons. Of course he calls himself smart; he's too ignorant to realize how stupid he sounds to a person of normal intelligence.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#168202: Jan 21st 2017 at 3:28:39 PM

Accordin to the Times 300,000 attended Bush' first inauguration and 400,000 attended his second.
He got less people than Dubya? Shocking.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#168203: Jan 21st 2017 at 3:42:49 PM

https://youtu.be/9AjjVMAdWm4?t=1h33m27s

Just watch this shit for yourself.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#168204: Jan 21st 2017 at 3:47:56 PM

Jesus he is SALTY

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#168205: Jan 21st 2017 at 3:54:04 PM

IGNORE THIS! SO SPEAKETH ORWELL!

edited 21st Jan '17 3:55:18 PM by Eagal

PhilosopherStones Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm from The North (lots of planets have them) (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm
#168206: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:02:06 PM

That guy actually had the gall to say Trump's had the largest live attendance period. Just straight up lyin'.

He got less people than Dubya? Shocking.

Well the attendance generally goes up as you move up the years. Trump matched Clinton's first inauguration and blew past Reagan's 140,000.

If his numbers are indicative of anythin' it's that he is a white guy.

GIVE ME YOUR FACE
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#168207: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:05:58 PM

Has there ever been a president starting out with lower approval ratings? And protests all over the country...well, I guess Lincoln managed the latter....

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#168208: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:07:43 PM

[up] Buchanan and Johnson? Though I think even they had a better start...

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#168209: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:07:54 PM

[up][up] At the very least Trump is probably lower than anyone in living memory. We'd have heard otherwise

edited 21st Jan '17 4:08:21 PM by sgamer82

PhilosopherStones Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm from The North (lots of planets have them) (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm
#168210: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:14:40 PM

Oh no doubt. And also public opinion of him is quite.

But I think how is attendance is bein' reported shows how manipulative and overzealous some people can be, skewing the truth to fit their own narrative.

It'd be more accurate to report his inauguration as havin' a "below average" attendance then a paltry one. People should have focused on how low the attendance was in contrast to how interest in the inauguration appears to increase over time. That would've supported their "Not My President" narrative without compromisin' their journalistic integrity.

Also, Obama was a hard act to follow. Of course whoever came after him would look less desirable by comparison. It just so happened that he was followed by the worst act possible.

GIVE ME YOUR FACE
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#168211: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:15:36 PM

Very mixed feelings today. Which is at least an improvement over yesterday's dourness.

On the negative side, more media bashing and refusing to take questions. No, that has no parallels to oppressive governments at all!

On the positive side, how cow, the protest turnouts. I didn't participate but I'm extremely impressed with the attendance.

cerebralTheatrics Since: Nov, 2013
#168212: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:20:01 PM

So, Trump is president now. Crazy, huh? I really doubt that even his diehard supporters genuinely expected it to happen. Hillary Clinton seemed to have everything on her side, but she still lost. Having two months to reflect upon the matter, it all makes sense now. Before I begin, I want to make something abundantly clear:

I am neither endorsing nor condemning Trump. I am merely expressing my opinion on the question of how he was able to win the presidency.

Anyway, let us begin. There are several factors that contributed to his win, and I'll lay them out in no particular order.

1) In general, the left has failed to listen to the electorate.

This is the big one. I could end this post right here because there is no better way to describe the reason behind Trump's victory. I tried thinking of a way I could best illustrate the matter, but then I realized that I didn't have to, as Hillary did a remarkable job of doing it for me with her infamous "basket of deplorables" speech. In it, she dismissed a quarter of the voting population's concerns as illegitimate; according to her, a quarter of voters are fueled by nothing more than bigotry of some form, and consequently, their worries about the state of the country aren't founded in reality. You see this happen all the time. Do you have a problem with illegal immigration? It won't be long before you are branded a racist. Are you worried about Islamic terrorism? See how long it takes before someone calls you an Islamophobe. Distressingly often nowadays, when left-wing politicians aren't being willfully ignorant of the electorate's worries, they use thought-terminating cliches, insults, and buzzwords to bring an abrupt end to the discussion.

Contrast this Donald Trump. Whether he was being genuine or not, he was at least acknowledging the problems people have with the state of the country. You might think the his supporters' worries were unfounded. Fair enough, but being willing to address the concerns of the electorate will get one further than denying their legitimacy. All along the campaign trail, Hillary seemed oblivious to the people's concerns at best and callously flippant at worst.

I firmly believe that had Bernie Sanders had been Trump's opponent instead of Hillary, Trump wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance in hell. It would've been the biggest political beatdown since 1984. Like Trump, Bernie actually listened to the public and addressed real concerns that they had, but he had the advantage of being far more stable and in touch with reality than Trump. In the end, this wasn't truly a battle of left versus right; it was a battle of populism versus establishment.

2) The more you use an insult, the less powerful it becomes.

Look at all the attacks on Trump, both issued by Hillary, her supporters, and the mainstream media. Almost all of them are attacks on Trump's character. Accusations of racism, sexism, and Islamophobia were and still are everywhere. There was only one problem with this tactic: fewer and fewer people are taking accusations of this nature seriously. We live in a world were air conditioning and sitting are called sexist, braided hair is called racist, and criticism of a religion is equated with hating said religion. When everything is racist/sexist/etc., nothing is. Few people were moved by these accusations because people have come to expect that everything will eventually be called bigoted by someone.

3) Issue politics will forever triumph over identity politics.

Now, contrast this with Trump. Now, was guilty of attacking Hillary's character just as she was guilty of attacking his, but he was focusing on her actions rather than her words. When he called her corrupt, there was certifiable proof of her shady dealings with foreign governments and companies that backed up this accusation. People were more disturbed by what Hillary had done than by what Trump had said.

Furthermore, whereas Hillary's campaign spent very little time talking about the issues, Trump spent quite a bit of time talking about them. Most people care more about immigration reform, foreign policy, and the economy more than they care about mean words.

4) 2016 was the year that the mainstream media died.

Nothing that the MSM could've said would've helped or hurt either camp. After all of the shoddy journalism done by CNN, MSNBC, and ABC, nobody gives a damn about what they have to say about anything anymore. Everyone expects them to use manipulative editing, lies by omission, and outright falsehoods to push an agenda. It's really, really pathetic when FOX news was the least terrible news station this year. First time for everything, I suppose.

5) Never answer Voltaire's prayer.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." -Voltaire

Given that Hillary lost the 2008 primary to Obama because the youth vote overwhelmingly sided with him, it would make sense that she'd try harder to appeal to young voters this time around.

She went about doing this in the worst way imaginable.

Through frequent and usually incorrect usage of outdated memes and slang, she successfully turned herself into a laughingstock in many circles. Trump made use of memes, too, but he used them much more sparingly.

Let us also not forget that Hillary got Pepe the Frog classified as a hate symbol. I know that sounds like an article from The Onion, but no, it actually happened. Everyone involved in the process took an serious hit to their credibility, as making memes a political issue is something only truly absurd person would try to do.

6) Never make a martyr out of your enemies.

All constant attacks on Trump by numerous people of importance had the opposite effect of what many of his opponents had hoped for. It only served to make him more sympathetic in the eyes of voters. The fact that so many people in politics, the media, the entertainment industry, and business made Trump seem like an underdog fighting against the corrupt establishment regardless of whether or not he deserves that reputation. The violence incited at Trump rallies by his opponents also made his supporters as an oppressed political movement. Again, whether or not they deserve this reputation is irrelevant.

I think that about covers it. Where do we go from here? I don't know. I'm inclined to believe that Trump won't get much done during his presidency. I doubt he realizes what he has gotten himself into, and most of his campaign promises will go unfulfilled. If you're a Trump supporter, don't set your hopes too high. If you're an opponent of Trump, relax. The world isn't ending. Trump doesn't have the authority to do most of the things he said he'll do, and since most of his party hates him, the more extreme promises he made will probably get blocked.

What I can say with certainty, however, that this spells the beginning of the end of the political establishment in the United States. Trump's victory will embolden populist elements in both the Democratic and Republican parties, and both will descend into a civil war. Will things change for the better? Will they change for the worse? It is too early to tell.

The big question is how can the left salvage itself by the time the next election comes around. The short version is that they need a rival populist who speaks for the people instead of a small group of special interests. Bernie Sanders is a good example, but he'll probably be too old to run in 2020. Additionally, the left needs to abandon its fascination with identity politics and focus more on the issues. If you want to know why radical right-wing movements like the alt-right are gaining ground, it's because the extreme left has given them the ideal breeding ground for their ideas. I, for one, do not want to live in a future where groups like the alt-right are actually taken seriously, and you shouldn't either. Lastly, it is important for the left to stop trying to paint everyone who disagrees with them as a bigot. You cannot shame people into voting for you.

Important reminder: my criticisms of Hillary Clinton and the left does not equate to support for Donald Trump or the right.

“Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.”
PhilosopherStones Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm from The North (lots of planets have them) (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm
#168213: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:23:24 PM

[up]This. This right here. Perfectly put.

@speedyboris

You support this?

edited 21st Jan '17 4:32:09 PM by PhilosopherStones

GIVE ME YOUR FACE
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#168214: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:34:55 PM

[up][up]Look, most of us here have hashed this out before, and while I am may be more in agreement with your views than others - especially when it comes to Clinton's failure in messaging - but the "Trump won because the left called people bigots" argument isn't exactly rock solid.

It's really, really pathetic when FOX news was the least terrible news station this year.
Now that's just bullshit, and you know it.

Trump doesn't have the authority to do most of the things he said he'll do, and since most of his party hates him, the more extreme promises he made will probably get blocked.
Well, I wouldn't bet on it. It's probably safer to rely on his own laziness and incompetence than a system of checks and balances.

I, for one, do not want to live in a future where groups like the alt-right are actually taken seriously
They're already taken seriously. Who do you think wrote his inauguration speech? It has the fingerprints of Steve Bannon all over it, as well Stephen Miller's - a friend of everyone's favorite nazi punching bag, Richard Spencer.

edited 21st Jan '17 4:41:24 PM by Eschaton

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168215: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:37:47 PM

I firmly believe that had Bernie Sanders had been Trump's opponent instead of Hillary, Trump wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance in hell. It would've been the biggest political beatdown since 1984.

No, he wouldn't. He'd have gotten the exact same kind of smackdown, if not a worse one.

See, the problem with the 'Bernie listens to the electorate' argument is that it presupposes that an anti-racist white populist (which is what Senator Sanders is) would beat a racist white populist, which Cheeto Benito is.

Given that historically, white people in the United States have an extremely strong bias towards white supremacy and institutional racism, I very much doubt that Senator Sanders wouldn't have been fucked just as badly at the polls. There is a segment of the American population that wants to erase the legacy of the President who not only massively advanced LGBT rights, but also served, to some extent, as a tentpole for how far parts of the country had come in the acceptance of people of color.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#168216: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:38:21 PM

[up][up][up][up] There's a lot to unpack in that post, but I'm gonna do that a little later. To be continued, folks.

edited 21st Jan '17 4:38:37 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#168217: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:39:36 PM

3) Issue politics will forever triumph over identity politics.

This ENTIRE ELECTION was about identity politics.

This was basically white backlash to minorities having the audacity to think they were equal to white America by electing the Country's first black President.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#168218: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:40:33 PM

I really HATE this "the left made too many mistakes" narrative. It's BS in my eyes, and goes in the same category of the commenter who whines that he would totally be for woman rights, but those annoying feminists are so off-putting. And for the record, I am not saying that certain kinds of feminists aren't off-putting...but by the same logic, I can just as well say: Those right wing people are so annoying with their hate that I will now the "no one is illegal" crowd in protest.

The Democrats might have lost the battle for now, but I think because they mostly avoided matching the low level of integrity the Republicans have displayed in the last years, they will eventually win the war.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168219: Jan 21st 2017 at 4:49:10 PM

And let's unpack, just for a minute, the idea that the Left focused too much on 'identity politics', because I think that, yes, this has something to do with 'why Trump won' in the abstract:

Racism Is Cultural and Institutional, and Intersects With Other Factors.

Ethnic, sexual and gender minorities all face various kinds of problems that are created by structural opposition to this minority-hood. To presuppose that 'identity politics' is tokenism or ignores economic factors is, to some extent, to presuppose that minority poverty, job restriction and officers of the law and citizens literally murdering them on the streets and getting away with it is all 'normal', and not a problem to be concerned with, or that these injustices are less important because some middle-class white boy gets his fee-fees hurt when someone calls him racist or participating in a racist power structure (which he, by virtue of living in the Western world, definitely is.)

The Left needs to understand and confront these problems not just because it's morally right, but because it elevates the most at-risk parts of American society, in terms of likelihood of poverty, homelessness, premature deaths, mental illness and a host of other social, psychological and physiological problems. It's not just the economy, stupid (to paraphrase Bill Clinton, not to call you - or anyone else who uses this argument - stupid). There are sociocultural factors at play here, and acknowledging them for what they are is going to help the left move forward, rather than simply burying the minority rights as 'secondary' in order to grasp power again - otherwise, what's all that power going to be used for?

Also, just to put the cherry on top:

If you want to know why radical right-wing movements like the alt-right are gaining ground, it's because the extreme left has given them the ideal breeding ground for their ideas.

Another throwback to the 1930's: Fascism happened because of THE COMMIES. Again, inaccurate - fascism breeds on a sense of a previous ruling class feeling like they've been screwed, and blaming it all on minorities. Saying that the alt-right (which is basically fascism with a jaunty re-branding) thrives because the far left is too extreme is bollocks - it's because those people have finally started to gain the same rights as everyone else in the country, and now the previous owners of that country are getting mad that they dare express some actual agency again.

edited 21st Jan '17 4:57:13 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#168220: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:05:08 PM

Is there any serious alt-left in US in the first place? As I've been told, the communist fear has been around ever since 20th Century and never went away.

Whatever enclaves of radical leftists are out there, their contribution to politics, social life or anything is marginal compared to radical right (who was Trump's primary voter, let's be honest).

edited 21st Jan '17 5:05:30 PM by FergardStratoavis

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#168221: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:08:04 PM

Yeah, I don't really get the impression that the hardcore far-left has any real presence in American politics. There's Sanders, but he's probably more "left" compared to the Democrats' "center-left".

Oh God! Natural light!
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#168222: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:08:12 PM

They're basically irrelevant.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#168223: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:09:26 PM

Trying to explain the populist phenomena sweeping the western world exclusively in terms of either racism or economic factors is a very narrowminded way of looking at things; both are important to understanding the Trump phenomena. As far as platform and policy positions go, there's not really much to be done in regards to the xenophobia given the extremely weak position of the democratic party, unless you intend to triangulate Trump's thinly veiled appeals to bigotry.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#168224: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:10:37 PM

There's probably a few hippie communes hanging around still, but that would be about it. The thing with the US is that the normal alt-left (the "let's get rid of all fossil fuels and just let people freeze because, well, they shouldn't have been using them in the first place" type of people) have no room, because the US left is bang on centrist, at best, in the places that tend to have an alt-left in the first place.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#168225: Jan 21st 2017 at 5:11:05 PM

Also also:

You support this?

He might not. I kinda do? Honestly, I've got complex feelings on it that generally comes down to 'if you can afford to buy a limousine, I'd rather side with the one who lit it on fire than you for losing it.'

Maybe it's just that I've increasingly lost my patience for the equivalence between material value and loss of actual, human life. Maybe it's that I have the feeling the guy (and I can almost assure you it's a guy) who owns that limo is probably just going to be personally inconvenienced by the reign of the Annoying Orange, whereas the person who set fire to that car might just be at a very real risk of dying, either because of violent police, violent, paranoid citizens with an effective license to kill, or any number of the housing and urban development/healthcare/general welfare programs due to get cut.

I'm not saying I'd have done it, or that I'd cheer for someone who did it rather than put it out. I'm saying that I understand that kind of property violence far more than I do the knee-jerk reaction to it - social disruption brings change, and unfortunately, sometimes change is destructive. I'd rather be taking the perspective of the people without power than the ones with power.

Of course, if that limo came from some middle-class limo rental then no, I definitely wouldn't support it. It's all down to perspective and how much (relative) economic damage this does to a person's likelihood to survive another day.

edited 21st Jan '17 5:11:46 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

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