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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
ID isn't free. Nor is the time it needs to get the ID. Nor is the fact that without the Voting Rights Act, minority voters can (and will, as in it's been documented) be refused by voting officials for having an 'insufficient' identification, because there's effectively no legal repercussion for that voting administrator to do that with the removal of the Voting Rights Act.
This is one of many, many situations in which America's fucked it. The fact that you need to register for identification needed to vote is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in a quasi-functional democracy, matched only by the Electoral College and Citizens United.
That is, might I add, an excellent strawman you've built yourself there. Might not wanna bring it to California though. Straw catches fire so very easily.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:07:34 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.I mean, I don't think James Mattis is a white supremacist, I just chafe at the idea of a general so recently discharged from the military becoming Secretary of Defense. There's a reason it's called 'civilian control of the military.'
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies."Oh no, I need a driver's license! RACISM! How could I be foiled so easily?!"
Your first state ID is free in many states. 30$ was affordable to me while on welfare. To renew is about 16-20$. You can sue an establishment for purported discrimination if you're positive your documentation is valid.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:10:48 PM by Wolfenmaus
Hate Lives In A Small Town, and if you're Almost Human, it'll lead you To The Bottom Of The Sea.@Matues: I was mostly coming from the perspective that pro-LGBT republicans do exist, notably Arnold Schwarzenegger and Colin Powell as I mentioned. The law of probability and just accounting for the complexity of people means other republican voters like that exist too.
But I can't really fault you, honestly. I have two LGBT siblings myself and for that reason I loathe Pence and anyone like him who thinks non-straight people are freaks who need to be tortured. My main point was that labels themselves can be misleading, since people can identify with them and not support the positions one would assume they do, but I would certainly agree with you that anyone identifying with the label has to understand that it has certain implications.
@Wolfmaus: I might not have made the same comment Hillary did, but the overlaying point was that there was a very unpleasant and frankly bigoted element to the way Trump was running his campaign. The guy himself has a documented history of misogyny and racial profiling in his business.
The important thing to understand here, and a point that many people have made over and over again, is that what a person is like in their private life or what they say they are doesn't really matter. By supporting Trump you are being complicit in that bigoted element, even if you are not yourself racist/sexist/etc. Racism is not about what people feel, it's about the effects of their actions and words and how it harms people.
@Wolfenmaus: People who are poor often have very little free time, and may very well be working multiple jobs and/or very long hours, which makes the process of going to get an ID somewhat more difficult than just going to a DMV. Then there's the issue of it not being free and well...If the Republicans want to have voter ID, they'd better be putting a national ID card program on the table as well, because as things stand an ID requirement to vote makes things unnecessarily complicated for no reason other than making it more difficult for poor people (particularly poor minorities) to vote.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:12:14 PM by CaptainCapsase
And when the DM Vs get shut down, the ones in poorer or racial minority districts tend to go first. So they might not have a car to get there, they might not have the time to get there, and they might not have the money to pay for it.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:13:48 PM by SilentColossus
@higherbrainpattern: There's no way the bills in Washington State and Minnesota will pass, and the Michigan Bill is already dead (Although you gotta keep an eye open for repeat bills). I don't think either the "Kill Protesters On Roads" Act in North Dakota or the Not-Yet-Created Law in Iowa can be found Constitutional, and would most likely be unanimously struck down by any and all Courts (even with a Trump pick or 2 in the Supreme Court).
And how do they have those jobs in the first place if they don't have an ID?
"Racism is not about what people feel"
Literal definition.
"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the BELIEF that one's own race is superior."
edited 20th Jan '17 2:15:48 PM by Wolfenmaus
Hate Lives In A Small Town, and if you're Almost Human, it'll lead you To The Bottom Of The Sea.@Matues: On one hand, that sounds like a sensationalized take on a law that's probably at least somewhat more subtle about it, on the other hand, North Dakota is North Dakota.
They have SSNs, presumably, which isn't a photo ID. Seriously, if the GOP wants to issue national ID cards and have that be identification for voting, I'm fine with that, most other countries do that in fact, but it makes things unnecessarily difficult for students and the poor to vote if you don't have national photo IDs
edited 20th Jan '17 2:16:09 PM by CaptainCapsase
@Wolfenmaus: Ben Carson is a token black dude to show that Trump's really not racist, even as his campaign and now his administration are run by people with open white supremacist ties. And nobody is white-knighting for poor people. Let's go over some facts:
- Many of the people affected by voter suppression are indeed so poor that they cannot afford cars.
- Even if they can, they often work two or even three jobs, with no vacation allowance. Not showing up for a day can get them fired.
- DMV service in poor areas is notoriously poor, and Republican legislatures in many states have been cutting back on urban DMV service for years. In many cases, going to a DMV is an all-day event - get up before dawn, get on the limited public transportation that is available, then wait in line for four, six, eight hours. If it closes before you get inside, you're SOL: try another day.
- Getting photo ID in most states costs money. This is something that poor people lack by definition. Feed your kids for a day or get a photo ID? Which do you pick?
- Getting photo ID also requires documentation that poor people may not have, and is expensive to acquire. For example, getting a birth certificate from a state agency usually has a fee associated with it.
- These same hurdles can also apply to older voters, who may lack access to transportation, lack physical mobility, and lack documentation.
- Voting can be particularly problematic for people without a permanent address, such as the homeless, and for college students. Many states refuse to honor student IDs as voter ID (while accepting gun licenses, because of course they do), and students are not permanent residents so they cannot easily get acceptable ID. Note that college students tend to vote Democrat in high proportion.
Certainly, many people do manage to overcome these hurdles, but they are huge hurdles, and every person who can't or doesn't jump them is unable to vote, and thus participate in our democracy.
Courts around the nation have repeatedly found voter ID laws to be unconstitutional in imposing undue burdens on the poor, effectively constituting a poll tax. There's also a principle of judicial oversight which states that a law serving no reasonable benefit, that raises barriers to participation, is an invalid law. A similar test has been applied to laws banning gay marriage.
Now, voter ID can be kept from being an undue burden, to be sure. Many other countries have figured out how to do it. It's very simple: all persons should receive photo ID free of charge upon reaching their majority, valid for all official purposes. Someone lacking this ID should be provided it free of charge. ID centers should be distributed in such a way that no person should have to travel more than one hour to reach them, with exceptions for remote rural locations.
Also, the "Deplorables" remark was spot on.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:20:24 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Regarding voter ID. For very sensible financial reasons, the demographic least likely to have a divers license is poor inner city residents (I know in my state at least, you need to carry insurance to have a valid drivers license even if you don't own a car). Poor inner city residents also overwhelmingly vote Democratic. And because they are more likely to be ethnic minorities, this is also in part a racial issue.
This means that Voter ID laws are more likely to require Democratic voters to actually obtain a new Photo ID then Republicans are. This wouldn't be a problem in itself since you can get a photo ID that isn't a driver's license, but Voter ID laws are often coupled with moves like closing or shortening hours at DMV locations that service poor inner city residents.
Add in the fact that in-person voter fraud, the only type of voter fraud that would be prevented by Photo ID, is astonishingly rare (like maybe a dozen cases nationally per election), and you end up in a situation where likely thousands of legitimate voters, the vast majority of which are Democratic-leaning, are unable to obtain a valid ID in time to vote for every single case of in-person voter fraud prevented.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:15:52 PM by Falrinn
For me, being against Trump has never been about any particular issue or preference for policy. I skew liberal mostly, but the candidates' policies in this election were a distant second to me in importance.
You can say Trump will do this, that, or the other all you want, but to me it doesn't take away from three simple points:
- Donald Trump is incompetent, at best.
- The GOP had continually proven itself to be untrustworthy.
- There is no skeleton in Clinton's closet, real or imagined, I can conceive that would ever convince me Trump and the GOP were the sane choice this election.
For Trump, just look at his behavior between Election Day and now, which I previously described as mistaking all the accusations against Clinton to be a job description.
For the GOP, the Supreme Court obstructionism is enough by itself, as there is no way they would've done the same thing if the president when Scalia died was Republican. But to add to that I'll toss in the transgender bathroom nonsense, which sought to discriminate against a group of people and, in the process, do a ton of damage to their economy as a consequence for no good reason I can perceive. That state's Congress also tried to weaken the governor's power the moment a democrat won the post. Finally, one of the first things the national Congress tried to do at the start of this year was remove an ethics committee.
At this point, I honestly don't care what their policies are. They've proven what they are by actions.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:20:48 PM by sgamer82
I'll quote the bill
:
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF NORTH DAKOTA: SECTION 1. Section 32-03.2-02.2 of the North Dakota Century Code is created and enacted as follows:
32-03.2-02.2. Liability exemption for motor vehicle driver.
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a driver of a motor vehicle who negligently causes injury or death to an individual obstructing vehicular traffic on a public road, street, or highway may not be held liable for any damages.
SECTION 2.AMENDMENT. Section 39-10-33 of the North Dakota Century Code is amended and reenacted as follows: 39-10-33. Pedestrian on roadway.
1.Where a sidewalk is provided and its use is practicable, it is unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and upon an adjacent roadway.
2. Where a sidewalk is not available, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall walk only on a shoulder, as far as practicable from the edge of the roadway.
3. Where neither a sidewalk nor a shoulder is available, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall walk as near as practicable to an outside edge of the roadway, and, if on a two-way roadway, shall walk only on the left side of the roadway.
4. Except as otherwise provided for in this chapter, any pedestrian upon a roadway shall yield the right of way to all vehicles upon the roadway.
5. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a driver of a motor vehicle who unintentionally causes injury or death to an individual obstructing vehicular traffic on a public road, street, or highway is not guilty of an offense
Literal definition.
"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the BELIEF that one's own race is superior."
I think you're going about it the wrong way. This
is more along the lines of what we're talking about when we discuss racism.
Though mind you, a lot of people genuinely do seem to fit the definition you provided.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:24:13 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!And here is what Merriam Webster says about using dictionaries to argue what a word means, on the racism page.
"Also, it's kinda rich anyone can say "democracy worked how it's supposed to" when the guy with three million fewer votes won. "
Because the country should be ruled by California.
Hate Lives In A Small Town, and if you're Almost Human, it'll lead you To The Bottom Of The Sea.As opposed to Montana? You're contradicting yourself with everything you say.
Edit: Never mind. We're done here. Not worth the effort, since no good-faith is being put forth on your part.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:27:05 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I'm not reporting him. I'm just saying that I fully expect this to end poorly for him because of how he frames his comments.
edited 20th Jan '17 2:06:31 PM by Matues