TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#167901: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:05:56 PM

[up][up][up]

I'm not reporting him. I'm just saying that I fully expect this to end poorly for him because of how he frames his comments.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:06:31 PM by Matues

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#167902: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:06:42 PM

Because poor people and minorities are too stupid to know where the DMV is. That is what you're saying. Do you think so poorly of those people? That those poor poor sheep need to be herded by those brave stronk liberal freedom fighters?

ID isn't free. Nor is the time it needs to get the ID. Nor is the fact that without the Voting Rights Act, minority voters can (and will, as in it's been documented) be refused by voting officials for having an 'insufficient' identification, because there's effectively no legal repercussion for that voting administrator to do that with the removal of the Voting Rights Act.

This is one of many, many situations in which America's fucked it. The fact that you need to register for identification needed to vote is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in a quasi-functional democracy, matched only by the Electoral College and Citizens United.

That is, might I add, an excellent strawman you've built yourself there. Might not wanna bring it to California though. Straw catches fire so very easily.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:07:34 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#167903: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:06:59 PM

Because poor people and minorities are too stupid to know where the DMV is. That is what you're saying.
No. It's because driver's licenses start being required for voting, and then DM Vs start getting shut down.

Ben Carson is a white supremacist?
No. He is a Christian supremacist, though, which is a much more consistent problem throughout the entire administration.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#167904: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:07:48 PM

Replying before IF has edited response in to pre-emptively add that a drivers license costs between $50-$100 dollars to obtain/renew and if your choice is between that and feeding your kids this week. you're walking to work.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:08:16 PM by Elle

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#167905: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:08:35 PM

I mean, I don't think James Mattis is a white supremacist, I just chafe at the idea of a general so recently discharged from the military becoming Secretary of Defense. There's a reason it's called 'civilian control of the military.'

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Wolfenmaus Great Gentleman Thief! from [REDACTED] Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Great Gentleman Thief!
#167906: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:10:21 PM

"Oh no, I need a driver's license! RACISM! How could I be foiled so easily?!"

Your first state ID is free in many states. 30$ was affordable to me while on welfare. To renew is about 16-20$. You can sue an establishment for purported discrimination if you're positive your documentation is valid.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:10:48 PM by Wolfenmaus

Hate Lives In A Small Town, and if you're Almost Human, it'll lead you To The Bottom Of The Sea.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#167907: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:10:21 PM

@Matues: I was mostly coming from the perspective that pro-LGBT republicans do exist, notably Arnold Schwarzenegger and Colin Powell as I mentioned. The law of probability and just accounting for the complexity of people means other republican voters like that exist too.

But I can't really fault you, honestly. I have two LGBT siblings myself and for that reason I loathe Pence and anyone like him who thinks non-straight people are freaks who need to be tortured. My main point was that labels themselves can be misleading, since people can identify with them and not support the positions one would assume they do, but I would certainly agree with you that anyone identifying with the label has to understand that it has certain implications.

@Wolfmaus: I might not have made the same comment Hillary did, but the overlaying point was that there was a very unpleasant and frankly bigoted element to the way Trump was running his campaign. The guy himself has a documented history of misogyny and racial profiling in his business.

The important thing to understand here, and a point that many people have made over and over again, is that what a person is like in their private life or what they say they are doesn't really matter. By supporting Trump you are being complicit in that bigoted element, even if you are not yourself racist/sexist/etc. Racism is not about what people feel, it's about the effects of their actions and words and how it harms people.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#167908: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:10:55 PM

@Wolfenmaus: People who are poor often have very little free time, and may very well be working multiple jobs and/or very long hours, which makes the process of going to get an ID somewhat more difficult than just going to a DMV. Then there's the issue of it not being free and well...If the Republicans want to have voter ID, they'd better be putting a national ID card program on the table as well, because as things stand an ID requirement to vote makes things unnecessarily complicated for no reason other than making it more difficult for poor people (particularly poor minorities) to vote.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:12:14 PM by CaptainCapsase

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#167909: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:10:59 PM

@Republican anti-protest laws:

In North Dakota, for instance, Republicans introduced a bill last week that would allow motorists to run over and kill any protester obstructing a highway as long as a driver does so accidentally.

I am honestly impressed. Wow. That's certainly something right there.

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#167910: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:11:07 PM

And when the DM Vs get shut down, the ones in poorer or racial minority districts tend to go first. So they might not have a car to get there, they might not have the time to get there, and they might not have the money to pay for it.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:13:48 PM by SilentColossus

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#167911: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:11:27 PM

You know, people keep refuting your points, Wolf, and you keep strawmanning and ignoring them.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#167912: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:12:27 PM

@higherbrainpattern: There's no way the bills in Washington State and Minnesota will pass, and the Michigan Bill is already dead (Although you gotta keep an eye open for repeat bills). I don't think either the "Kill Protesters On Roads" Act in North Dakota or the Not-Yet-Created Law in Iowa can be found Constitutional, and would most likely be unanimously struck down by any and all Courts (even with a Trump pick or 2 in the Supreme Court).

Wolfenmaus Great Gentleman Thief! from [REDACTED] Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Great Gentleman Thief!
#167913: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:12:29 PM

And how do they have those jobs in the first place if they don't have an ID?

"Racism is not about what people feel"

Literal definition.

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the BELIEF that one's own race is superior."

edited 20th Jan '17 2:15:48 PM by Wolfenmaus

Hate Lives In A Small Town, and if you're Almost Human, it'll lead you To The Bottom Of The Sea.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#167914: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:13:04 PM

@Matues: On one hand, that sounds like a sensationalized take on a law that's probably at least somewhat more subtle about it, on the other hand, North Dakota is North Dakota.

[up] They have SSNs, presumably, which isn't a photo ID. Seriously, if the GOP wants to issue national ID cards and have that be identification for voting, I'm fine with that, most other countries do that in fact, but it makes things unnecessarily difficult for students and the poor to vote if you don't have national photo IDs

edited 20th Jan '17 2:16:09 PM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#167915: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:15:04 PM

@Wolfenmaus: Ben Carson is a token black dude to show that Trump's really not racist, even as his campaign and now his administration are run by people with open white supremacist ties. And nobody is white-knighting for poor people. Let's go over some facts:

  • Many of the people affected by voter suppression are indeed so poor that they cannot afford cars.
  • Even if they can, they often work two or even three jobs, with no vacation allowance. Not showing up for a day can get them fired.
  • DMV service in poor areas is notoriously poor, and Republican legislatures in many states have been cutting back on urban DMV service for years. In many cases, going to a DMV is an all-day event - get up before dawn, get on the limited public transportation that is available, then wait in line for four, six, eight hours. If it closes before you get inside, you're SOL: try another day.
  • Getting photo ID in most states costs money. This is something that poor people lack by definition. Feed your kids for a day or get a photo ID? Which do you pick?
  • Getting photo ID also requires documentation that poor people may not have, and is expensive to acquire. For example, getting a birth certificate from a state agency usually has a fee associated with it.
  • These same hurdles can also apply to older voters, who may lack access to transportation, lack physical mobility, and lack documentation.
  • Voting can be particularly problematic for people without a permanent address, such as the homeless, and for college students. Many states refuse to honor student IDs as voter ID (while accepting gun licenses, because of course they do), and students are not permanent residents so they cannot easily get acceptable ID. Note that college students tend to vote Democrat in high proportion.

Certainly, many people do manage to overcome these hurdles, but they are huge hurdles, and every person who can't or doesn't jump them is unable to vote, and thus participate in our democracy.

Courts around the nation have repeatedly found voter ID laws to be unconstitutional in imposing undue burdens on the poor, effectively constituting a poll tax. There's also a principle of judicial oversight which states that a law serving no reasonable benefit, that raises barriers to participation, is an invalid law. A similar test has been applied to laws banning gay marriage.

Now, voter ID can be kept from being an undue burden, to be sure. Many other countries have figured out how to do it. It's very simple: all persons should receive photo ID free of charge upon reaching their majority, valid for all official purposes. Someone lacking this ID should be provided it free of charge. ID centers should be distributed in such a way that no person should have to travel more than one hour to reach them, with exceptions for remote rural locations.

Also, the "Deplorables" remark was spot on.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:20:24 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#167916: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:15:39 PM

Regarding voter ID. For very sensible financial reasons, the demographic least likely to have a divers license is poor inner city residents (I know in my state at least, you need to carry insurance to have a valid drivers license even if you don't own a car). Poor inner city residents also overwhelmingly vote Democratic. And because they are more likely to be ethnic minorities, this is also in part a racial issue.

This means that Voter ID laws are more likely to require Democratic voters to actually obtain a new Photo ID then Republicans are. This wouldn't be a problem in itself since you can get a photo ID that isn't a driver's license, but Voter ID laws are often coupled with moves like closing or shortening hours at DMV locations that service poor inner city residents.

Add in the fact that in-person voter fraud, the only type of voter fraud that would be prevented by Photo ID, is astonishingly rare (like maybe a dozen cases nationally per election), and you end up in a situation where likely thousands of legitimate voters, the vast majority of which are Democratic-leaning, are unable to obtain a valid ID in time to vote for every single case of in-person voter fraud prevented.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:15:52 PM by Falrinn

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#167917: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:19:10 PM

For me, being against Trump has never been about any particular issue or preference for policy. I skew liberal mostly, but the candidates' policies in this election were a distant second to me in importance.

You can say Trump will do this, that, or the other all you want, but to me it doesn't take away from three simple points:

  • Donald Trump is incompetent, at best.
  • The GOP had continually proven itself to be untrustworthy.
  • There is no skeleton in Clinton's closet, real or imagined, I can conceive that would ever convince me Trump and the GOP were the sane choice this election.

For Trump, just look at his behavior between Election Day and now, which I previously described as mistaking all the accusations against Clinton to be a job description.

For the GOP, the Supreme Court obstructionism is enough by itself, as there is no way they would've done the same thing if the president when Scalia died was Republican. But to add to that I'll toss in the transgender bathroom nonsense, which sought to discriminate against a group of people and, in the process, do a ton of damage to their economy as a consequence for no good reason I can perceive. That state's Congress also tried to weaken the governor's power the moment a democrat won the post. Finally, one of the first things the national Congress tried to do at the start of this year was remove an ethics committee.

At this point, I honestly don't care what their policies are. They've proven what they are by actions.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:20:48 PM by sgamer82

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#167918: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:19:47 PM

On one hand, that sounds like a sensationalized take on a law that's probably at least somewhat more subtle about it, on the other hand, North Dakota is North Dakota.

I'll quote the bill:

A BILL for an Act to create and enact section 32-03.2-02.2 of the North Dakota Century Code, relating to the liability exemption of a motor vehicle driver; and to amend and reenact section 39-10-33 of the North Dakota Century Code, relating to pedestrians on roadways.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF NORTH DAKOTA: SECTION 1. Section 32-03.2-02.2 of the North Dakota Century Code is created and enacted as follows:

32-03.2-02.2. Liability exemption for motor vehicle driver.

Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a driver of a motor vehicle who negligently causes injury or death to an individual obstructing vehicular traffic on a public road, street, or highway may not be held liable for any damages.

SECTION 2.AMENDMENT. Section 39-10-33 of the North Dakota Century Code is amended and reenacted as follows: 39-10-33. Pedestrian on roadway.

1.Where a sidewalk is provided and its use is practicable, it is unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and upon an adjacent roadway.

2. Where a sidewalk is not available, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall walk only on a shoulder, as far as practicable from the edge of the roadway.

3. Where neither a sidewalk nor a shoulder is available, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall walk as near as practicable to an outside edge of the roadway, and, if on a two-way roadway, shall walk only on the left side of the roadway.

4. Except as otherwise provided for in this chapter, any pedestrian upon a roadway shall yield the right of way to all vehicles upon the roadway.

5. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a driver of a motor vehicle who unintentionally causes injury or death to an individual obstructing vehicular traffic on a public road, street, or highway is not guilty of an offense

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#167919: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:21:24 PM

"Racism is not about what people feel"

Literal definition.

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the BELIEF that one's own race is superior."

I think you're going about it the wrong way. This is more along the lines of what we're talking about when we discuss racism.

Though mind you, a lot of people genuinely do seem to fit the definition you provided.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:24:13 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#167920: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:23:43 PM

Also, it's kinda rich anyone can say "democracy worked how it's supposed to" when the guy with three million fewer votes won.

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#167921: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:23:44 PM

And here is what Merriam Webster says about using dictionaries to argue what a word means, on the racism page.

Dictionaries are often treated as the final arbiter in arguments over a word’s meaning, but they are not always well suited for settling disputes. The lexicographer’s role is to explain how words are (or have been) actually used, not how some may feel that they should be used, and they say nothing about the intrinsic nature of the thing named by a word, much less the significance it may have for individuals. When discussing concepts like racism, therefore, it is prudent to recognize that quoting from a dictionary is unlikely to either mollify or persuade the person with whom one is arguing.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#167922: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:25:07 PM

Also, Merriam-Webster despises Trump.

That's not particularly relevant, but I love that it's true.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Wolfenmaus Great Gentleman Thief! from [REDACTED] Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Great Gentleman Thief!
#167923: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:25:38 PM

"Also, it's kinda rich anyone can say "democracy worked how it's supposed to" when the guy with three million fewer votes won. "

Because the country should be ruled by California.

Hate Lives In A Small Town, and if you're Almost Human, it'll lead you To The Bottom Of The Sea.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#167924: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:26:40 PM

As opposed to Montana? You're contradicting yourself with everything you say.

Edit: Never mind. We're done here. Not worth the effort, since no good-faith is being put forth on your part.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:27:05 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#167925: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:26:51 PM

The president should be elected by the people, not a handful of racist assholes from the rust belt.


Total posts: 417,856
Top