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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#167001: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:47:33 AM

But let's not talk about Mr. Trump's ravings. Instead, let's ask whether Mr. Lewis was right to say what he said. Is it O.K., morally and politically, to declare the man about to move into the White House illegitimate?

Yes, it is. In fact, it's an act of patriotism.

I dunno about that. I know people don't like Mr. Trump, and he almost certainly won through Russian meddling of our Political Processes, but calling the President "Illegitimate" reminds me of all those damn Republicans who for 4 years called Obama a Kenyan Communist Islamofacist who was "not [there] President", and vowed to make Obama have One Term only.

Mr. Lewis is well within his rights to not go to the Inauguration, and he can say that he doesn't support Trump, but I think it's dangerous to claim Trump isn't "Legitimate". He won whether we like it or not, and unless there was actual Vote Tampering on Election Day, it doesn't matter how he actually won it. Sowing the seeds of "illegitimacy" is a great way to anger and motivate the base, but it also makes said base vile and repulsive, and that's the last thing Democrats need to do right now.

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#167002: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:48:00 AM

If things in the US break down into a civil war, and if the police and military are involved, how much will they remain loyal to the government, and how much would revolt?

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#167003: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:53:59 AM

[up]Law enforcement and the military are deeply right-wing institutions. Disregarding for a moment their oath to protect and uphold the state, most simply wouldn't agree with the aims of an anti-Trump revolt.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#167004: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:56:06 AM

[up] That, and an Anti-Trump Revolt would be a Revolt against the State.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#167005: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:56:43 AM

The largest police union in the country endorsed Trump, and upon his victory, started asking him to start mass deportations and bring back racial profiling.

They don't represent all cops, but we still all know which side of the jackboot they're going to be on.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#167006: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:05:45 PM

[up]Yeah. Aside from the odd extremely left-centric cop, or the rare leftist, retired general who thinks enough is enough, if worst to comes worst, we're on our own.

edited 16th Jan '17 12:06:01 PM by kkhohoho

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#167007: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:10:26 PM

Yup. At this point, I think the only ones who are going to help us are us. Our leaders are cowards, our institutions have already failed us and are about to be corrupted even further, and our foreign allies are about to become our victims.

Also...

That, and an Anti-Trump Revolt would be a Revolt against the State.

You're damn right it would be.

"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#167008: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:13:46 PM

unless there was actual Vote Tampering on Election Day, it doesn't matter how he actually won it.

What counts as vote tampering? Because if denying people the right to vote based on their race counts than the election was illegitimate. Remember Trump won on the back of the (effective) ending of the Voting Rights Act that ended Jim Crow laws.

Certain states are about as democratic as Iran or similar countries. Should the electoral votes of North Carolinia be considered legitimate when North Carolina is no longer a democracy under academic models?

[up] Officers in the US military are largely anti-Trump so help may come, national guard units might decide to accept the orders of their governors (who could be part of the revolt) and in the end not many people can stomach actually going though with shooting unarmed civilians, even long standing dictatorships have seen their military refuse to act on such orders.

edited 16th Jan '17 12:16:34 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#167009: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:14:53 PM

And again, as much as Russia helped Trump, they wouldn't have gotten anywhere if a good portion of this country weren't racist shitheads.

New Survey coming this weekend!
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#167010: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:16:32 PM

[up]x9 Is there loads of evidence concerning Obama getting help from a nation that we have a hostile relationship with? What about the FBI releasing a message that made it seem like they had evidence against him, days before the election? Don't kid yourself; Obama was legitimately voted in, with evidence showing he is an American citizen. Meanwhile, we also have evidence that Trump got help from Russia and an FBI who are moronic, if not outright rogue.

edited 16th Jan '17 12:17:58 PM by SciFiSlasher

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#167011: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:16:38 PM

Don't forget that at this point, it's obvious that Trump is Putin's pet. He isn't loyal to the US.

"Legitimate president," my ass. John Lewis said what nobody else had the guts to.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#167012: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:18:48 PM

Also there's a difference between questioning a persons legitimacy to run for office on racial grounds and questioning the legitimacy of an election result.

The later is certainly dangerous, but it has more sense to it than birther bullshit. Nobody is asking for Trump's birth certificate.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#167013: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:22:32 PM

I am. I need to see his birth certificate to make sure he was born and not summoned.note 

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#167014: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:23:46 PM

"Is qualified to be President" is a test with multiple sets of criteria depending on whether you are applying a literal Constitutional test or a more metaphorical one.

Trump is literally qualified to be President according to Article II of the U.S. Constitution (plus the 12th and 25th Amendments). By traditional standards of who can and should be President, including emotional stability, rationality, conflicts of interest, ties to foreign powers, experience with government, and so on, he is the single least qualified person ever elected to the job.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#167015: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:24:10 PM

Guys, you do know you're probably getting dangerously close to getting the thread locked with all of this discussion of violent revolt, right?

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#167016: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:25:38 PM

Also, that. There shall be no discussion of inciting or engaging in violent revolt in this topic. It may be a thing that is likely to happen, but we shall not raise the Torches and Pitchforks here.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#167017: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:25:42 PM

Ah remember Obama's standout line in his 2004 address?

Now even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes.

Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America; there's the United States of America.

(APPLAUSE)

There's not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America.

(APPLAUSE)

The pundits, the pundits like to slice and dice our country into red states and blue States: red states for Republicans, blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the blue states, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states.

We coach little league in the blue states and, yes, we've got some gay friends in the red states.

(APPLAUSE)

There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq, and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq.

We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.

Try reading this without feeling sad at how completely wrong it is.

New Survey coming this weekend!
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#167018: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:33:41 PM

What counts as vote tampering? Because if denying people the right to vote based on their race counts than the election was illegitimate. Remember Trump won on the back of the (effective) ending of the Voting Rights Act that ended Jim Crow laws.

Certain states are about as democratic as Iran or similar countries. Should the electoral votes of North Carolinia be considered legitimate when North Carolina is no longer a democracy under academic models?

Vote Tampering would literally be when people go to a Ballot and either stuff it full of fake votes or somehow rig it to not count certain votes. Yes, the Republican Legislatures that actively suppress Voters, based on Race or Party Association, is a problem, and one Democrats nation wide should have fought harder against. No, that doesn't make the Elections Results illegitimate, especially when 50+% of the Nation doesn't ever bother to vote because they think their vote doesn't matter and are thus "suppressed" as well; if Voter Suppression, either intentional or not, did delegitimize Elections, then we'd have 0 legitimate elections.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#167019: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:33:55 PM

The problem with looking up and reaching toward the glittering stars of what our country could be if we all worked together is that there will always be people willing to sucker-punch you in the kidneys while you're stretching, take your wallet, and then walk away whistling.

That metaphor didn't come out as well as I hoped, but I trust the general idea came through.

It's been fun.
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#167020: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:37:03 PM

Of course unchecked voter suppression delegitimizes elections. When the voting rights of hundreds of thousands of US citizens are ignored and violated, to the point where it actually sways the result (seriously, check out the margins), then the GOP might as well have just gone ahead and stuffed the ballot box.

Openly removing ten thousand black votes from the box should not be considered somehow more virtuous or more legitimate than secretly adding ten thousand white votes.

And come on, not turning out does not mean your vote is suppressed. Don't obfuscate the issue. Suppression is when you want to vote, and are denied that Constitutional right.

edited 16th Jan '17 12:37:09 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#167021: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:41:31 PM

if Voter Suppression, either intentional or not, did delegitimize Elections, then we'd have 0 legitimate elections.

Sure but than why aren't elections in Russia, Iran and China legitimate? Ballot stuffing isn't how elections are generally rigged theses days.

The fact that your democracy is apparently so poor that your elections would not meet your own standards for legitimacy says that something is incredibly wrong with the US.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#167022: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:45:19 PM

There are still background issues behind people staying home: being told for years that their vote doesn't matter and nothing will change anyway, the lack of voting day holidays and inadequate polling locations, etc that are as troubled as troubling if less obvious than using the drug war to disenfranchise large numbers of people, blocking the right to vote through voter ID laws, and Shelby County.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#167023: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:45:53 PM

Its not just voter suppression, the US has serious gerrymandering issues that most other liberal democracies got over decades ago. That doesn't impact the presidency, but it seriously skews elections at the State level and in Congress.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#167024: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:47:31 PM

It can have an indirect impact on the presidency, if opposition voters in those heavily skewed districts remain home because they feel their vote doesn't count — or even vice-versa, if majority voters remain home because they feel their vote is unnecessary. There are probably studies of both effects.

edited 16th Jan '17 12:48:14 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#167025: Jan 16th 2017 at 12:48:40 PM

[up][up][up] Also disabled people who don't really have the luxury of being able to wait in line for hours at a polling place. (Reminder: about one in five Americans are disabled.) But I'm sure that's going to get better, since Trump has demonstrated so much respect for disabled people...

[up][up] Who in turn enact further voter suppression. They've managed to dig themselves in pretty deep by now, through sheer lack of principles

edited 16th Jan '17 12:48:49 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

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