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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#166601: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:31:13 PM

[up][up] Quite.

[up][up][up] What Putin did was provide a slight nudge for a country standing at the edge of an abyss. Russia didn't create the political climate that allowed a demagogue into power, they didn't have anything to do with the polarization of American politics, and their actual interference in the election amounted to leaking information.

edited 13th Jan '17 8:33:07 PM by CaptainCapsase

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#166602: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:32:10 PM

Trump and the Russian government in regards to the sanctions, even then I'm still skeptical (this was opposition research by a former agent, not MI 6), but the chain of "logic" being thrown around here is awfully similar to r/the_donald "investigating" #pizzagate

It started out as opposition research but then the agent started working for free because the truth was becoming more and more disturbing the more he dug.

He even turned in his findings directly to the FBI in August.

The agent is also credible enough to have worked on the FIFA scandal.

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#166603: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:33:10 PM

@Captain Capsase: I sincerely hope we are wrong, off base, and totally overreacting-because the alternative is keeping me from sleeping soundly. That said, at least we are looking at the evidence here; if the core piece of evidence surrounding this mess was as easily refuted as 'no basement', that would be comforting.

edited 13th Jan '17 8:34:11 PM by ViperMagnum357

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#166604: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:34:16 PM

They viewed Clinton as some sort of omniscient chessmaster secretly controlling everything. Much like people here seem to view Vladimir Putin after the election. Of course, unlike Clinton, Putin actually wants to be viewed that way.

It's still weird to me because Clinton doesn't really get anything out of a secret pedophilia ring. At least with Putin you could make a case that he's furthering Russia's geopolitical goals, regardless of whether specific allegations are founded or not.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#166605: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:37:05 PM

If the United States wasn't the sole superpower and leader of the Free world, I'd be extremely fucking impressed with what the FSB and Putin were able to do in the 2016 elections.

Like...forget playing us like a fiddle, he played us like a goddamn orchestra

New Survey coming this weekend!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#166606: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:37:24 PM

I know this is gonna sound weird but if all this stuff is true and we make it through this I really want to see a movie about this shit in twenty years. There's probably a ton of backroom stuff going on that we're completely oblivious too right now. I'd be curious to get a more complete picture of what this looks like to the people in the government.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#166607: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:37:44 PM

[up][up][up] It typically had something to do with either making money or comparisons that pedophilia scandal that came out of the British parliament a while ago.

Edit: To use an example of the direction the logic being thrown around here goes, do any of you believe the CIA was behind the color revolutions and the Arab Spring? Or the protests against Putin? Because saying "oh Russia installed Trump, blah" is only slightly more credible an assertion. Russian leadership certainly believes both were backed by the United States, because, in their view, people simply do not rise up spontaneously without a state actor behind them. You are engaging the same flawed reasoning.

edited 13th Jan '17 8:41:38 PM by CaptainCapsase

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#166608: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:45:14 PM

TBH I don't have a problem buying Trump might have been able to win even without russian interference. Some voter suppression here and there, the email scandal, etc etc. Even with all that stuff it wasn't exactly a landslide victory for Donald.

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#166609: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:53:17 PM

You know, I find some irony that Alaska use to be part of Russia before it became part of the US. Now it is pretty much being returned to Russia.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#166610: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:57:12 PM

I mean, I tend to think he wouldn't have won without Russian interference, but I think that's also true of a half-dozen other factors. Mostly I think that american elections are complicated events affected by hundreds of different things, may of which are hard to measure the precise impact of. But Trump won by a narrow enough margin that removing just about any significant factor that worked in his favour could be expected to have a reasonable possibility of changing the outcome.

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#166611: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:58:09 PM

[up][up][up][up]I don't think anyone here is arguing this as some sort of master plan cooked up in the depths of the Kremlin; rather, Putin took advantage of several long shot events brewing into an unlikely confluence. The partisanship has been percolating since 1994, the refusal to accept any opponent as legitimate and treating every Democrat as merely an aggravating obstacle reached fruition in the 2010 midterms. Voter Suppression has been an ongoing concern since the 1960's, and the urban/rural Divide even longer. The KGB may have been trying to cultivate Trump as an asset as early as the late 80's before the wall fell; not as some linchpin, but as just one more chip they might get to cash in down the road. 2016 was the equivalent of an old lotto ticket you lost in the couch cushions getting renewed and striking the jackpot on a technicality after you spent a decade in poverty.

We were going to have a serious problem in this country anyway with a likely Republican, obstructive Senate and House, and a real possibility of a Republican president to rubber stamp their abhorrent platform. Once Trump was leading the pack and won the primary, the entire FSB must have climaxed.

edited 13th Jan '17 8:58:23 PM by ViperMagnum357

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#166612: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:02:36 PM

[up] Perhaps you aren't, but I'm not sure about many of the other regular posters, much less the random masses on the Internet. Turning this into a conspiracy theory and fomenting distrust in American intelligence agencies is the best way for Trump to bury this. That being said, you definitely are arguing this is some sort of master plan by the Kremlin, albeit one that's at least remotely plausible.

edited 13th Jan '17 9:03:52 PM by CaptainCapsase

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#166613: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:09:05 PM

So this is a summary of those things I've said:

Dossier says Russia wants sanctions lifted so bad it would give up to 19.5% of Rosneft's business to Page/Trump. This is from October. In December Rosneft privatizes and sells 19.5% to Glencore and Qatar, both of which had been advised by Guilliani's law firm. After the sale Page meets with Rosneft in Moscow. Qatar announces they'll spend $10 billion in infrastructure in the US in response to Trump 6 days after the sale. Then a former FSB agent and Igor Sechin's chief of staff is found dead in late December. (Igor Sechin is a blacklisted chairman of Rosneft and former KGB) Meanwhile, Tillerson, Trump's pick for secretary of state curated a very close relationship between himself and Sechin plus Exxon Mobil and Rosneft.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#166614: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:11:54 PM

Accusing US intelligence of literally being staffed by Russian spies is ridiculous.

I'm going to take a more materialist approach to all of this, with the current dilemmas being the result of greed and all-American stupidity.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#166615: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:13:37 PM

Weren't us intelligence branches the ones telling everyone the Russians were Up To Something? I was under the impression the only one potentially compromised we Comey/the FBI

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#166616: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:15:22 PM

Nah, the FBI was compromised because they were full of Trump supporters. A news article went around about it a couple months back. They viewed Hillary as Satan.

Comey was evidently one of those and put the GOP first ahead of the truth.

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#166617: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:16:06 PM

[up][up]So far, the only evidence we have suggest ulterior motives for Comey and a few underlings-the CIA and NSA have been pushing this investigation hard for months, in spite of the incompetent current NSA Director.

[nja]'d.

edited 13th Jan '17 9:17:14 PM by ViperMagnum357

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#166618: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:18:03 PM

Accusing US intelligence of literally being staffed by Russian spies is ridiculous.

TRUMP GOT ELECTED PRESIDENT FOR FUCKS SAKE.

The Russians managed to stack British intelligence with their lackeys back in the day and somehow you don't think they could do the same here, despite the fact that they've just embarrassed the IC with their hacking?

Come on, now.

New Survey coming this weekend!
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#166619: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:23:20 PM

Newsweek: Paul Ryan vows to repeal and replace Obamacare simultaneously

House Speaker Paul Ryan on Thursday night promised that a repeal of Obamacare will coincide with a replacement policy. Speaking during a town hall in Washington, D.C., the Republican leader said drafting replacement legislation is “definitely a plan within the first 100 days” of Donald Trump’s presidency.

Early during the CNN forum, an Arizona cancer patient told Ryan that the Affordable Care Act saved his life and thanked President Barack Obama for his health care coverage. “Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, I’m standing here alive,” Jeff Jeans said, before asking the House speaker why he would repeal the ACA without a replacement.

“Oh, we wouldn’t do that. We want to replace it with something better,” Ryan said. He explained that Republicans believe state high-risk pools are a smarter way of guaranteeing coverage for Americans with pre-existing conditions. The existing law, he said, is “collapsing,” and the GOP must step in to rescue Americans in need of health coverage. Earlier this week, Ryan had said that some elements of an insurance substitute likely would be ready when lawmakers vote to repeal the law, but other aspects would take time.

For years, Republicans have been trying to get rid of Obama’s 2010 signature health care law. Eight days before Obama leaves office, Senate Republicans took their first official step in dismantling the measure by passing a budget resolution earlier on Thursday, despite hours-long resistance from Democrats. The vote instructs committees in the House and Senate to begin the process of working on legislation to repeal major parts of the ACA. The House is expected to take up the legislation on Friday.

When CNN’s Jake Tapper asked Ryan if he could provide more details about when the replacement would happen, the Republican said, “I don’t have a date, but that’s something we’re working on right now.... We’re working on this as fast as possible.”

On Tuesday, Trump told congressional Republicans to pass an Obamacare replacement “very quickly.” They plan to officially repeal the law by the end of February or the beginning of March, Politico reported.

During the town hall, Ryan said the GOP can put a better system in place. “We can and should have a system in this country where everybody can have access to affordable health care, including people with pre-existing conditions,” he said. “That’s not what this law is doing. This law is failing on that front.”

During the one-hour event, audience members also questioned Ryan on Planned Parenthood, Russia and immigration. One undocumented immigrant mother, who currently is protected from deportation because of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals immigration policy, asked Ryan whether he thought she should be deported. “No,” he said. “What we have to do is find a way to make sure that you can get right with the law. And we have to do this in a good way so that the rug doesn’t get pulled out from under you and your family gets separated.”

CNN hosted a similar event on Tuesday with Senator Bernie Sanders, the one-time Democratic presidential candidate who now holds a leadership role in the Senate. He promised an audience member with incurable breast cancer that he would do everything he can to improve the ACA. “It has problems,” he added, “but we damn well are not going to see it repealed and have no replacement there.”

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#166620: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:23:34 PM

Tactical, you're taking an extreme position simply because of the end result. You take the extreme position frequently, and have also frequently stated that the Democratic Party should take authoritarian stances regarding its own membership. Capsase's criticisms apply pretty well to many of your arguments.

Yes, I believe that Russians fucked around with our election. Yes, I believe they gathered quite a bit of information on Trump. I also believe that the FBI itself seems to support Trump. Comey certainly broke a whole lot of rules regarding how the FBI should act regarding the election.

This is not the same thing as Russian intelligence having active spies in the FBI itself. Frankly, in a legal sense, it's a weak connection leading to a disprovable conclusion on your part. It's the kind of thing that requires more evidence, no matter how certain you are that you know the truth.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#166621: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:44:50 PM

I'm of the camp that thinks the FBI did what they did not because they're being blackmailed by Russia but because they're full of partisan hacks who hate HRC and/or love Trump.

One thing I am certain of: FUCK. COMEY.

edited 13th Jan '17 9:45:45 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#166622: Jan 13th 2017 at 10:36:02 PM

If I'm not mistaken, the FBI New York office was stated once to have quite a few agents believe that Clinton Cash was factual despite the author literally admitting that there was nothing whatsoever admissible as evidence of anything in the book.

The CIA didn't want to have anything to do with anything that would appear to be interfering with the election, regardless of how bad things got and how much evidence was furnished. At least they have more principles than Comey.

A North Dakota lawmaker wants to make it so drivers cannot be legally liable for running over people protesting on roads. Or anyone spending longer than usual on one on foot. Yes, the lawmaker responsible is funded by oil money. Why do you ask?

Sacking of the general supposedly overseeing security during the Trump administration: See this.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#166623: Jan 13th 2017 at 10:37:21 PM

I think it's possible that Comey has been compromised by Russian intelligence (I tried to post that many hours ago but internet died mid post), however it's also possible (and more likely) that he's simply an asshole who decided to illegally meddle with the election for his own reasons.

As for what could cause a Trump impeachment by the Republicans, beyond a total party death threat from something absurd like an actual sex tape fo Trump and his daughter being leaked it would have to be a threat to their safety. A threat either from an angry mob, law enforcement or possible Trump himself.

Look how the press has circled the wagons over Trump's threats. You think Congress wouldn't do the same? If Trump starts trying to round up rival politicians and have them jailed I think he might get impeached because everyone would be worried that they'd be next.

edited 13th Jan '17 10:44:41 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#166624: Jan 13th 2017 at 10:41:30 PM

[up][up] North Dakota... GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER!!!! First the oil pipeline, now this?!! Also, sacking the general who is suppose to oversee your security when more than half the country (If not planet) hates your guts is not the smartest idea...

edited 13th Jan '17 10:47:44 PM by Bat178

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#166625: Jan 13th 2017 at 11:08:17 PM

The only reason Trump has any, and I do mean ANY leverage at all, is because his followers are practically a Cult.

You take that aspect away, and the GOP would get rid of him on Jan. 21st.

New Survey coming this weekend!

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