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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#159651: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:06:10 PM

It's not that strange.

To be very blunt: Major corporations put forward a ton of money to wanting the normalization of homosexuals, because there's a growing affluent Homosexual bourgeoisie (or Gays willing to come out of the closet who have lots of money). They just started pumping it out within the last year or two. They've made put forward a lot of money in good faith that they'd be able to make money off of homosexuals being more accepted.

It's an investment they don't want ruined.

Sexual Orientation Equality is Good Business, now.

And this doesn't include the fact a fair number of capitalists are socially left wing.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:07:46 PM by PotatoesRock

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159653: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:09:11 PM

Look guys this anti-corporate thing is going to need some nuance. Even Karl Marx was backed by a corporation, Friedrich Engels' company. Their whole system was the dialectic, system creating contradictions and opposites.

Mahatma Gandhi was also backed by corporations. Indian industrialists like Birla and Bajaj, Gandhi got shot outside Birla's mansion where he was staying and in his spare time he told workers striking at mills to get back to work. He was a frugal man, of few possessions but he still had bills and that was paid by his backers. Doesn't mean he was a sell out or anything.

The fact is capitalism is a system that needs to be attacked. In that system you have banks, corporations and others at various levels. It's not about one person or one company or one brand. It's a general system. So let's drop this whole surprise at alliance with corporations on social issues in American politics.

Citizens United and the Koch Brothers are a problem because they are creating oligarchy. That's what we should curtail.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:10:13 PM by JulianLapostat

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159654: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:09:26 PM

@JulianLapostat: Sorry, I'm being a bit hyperbolic, but i do feel like you (deliberately?) underestimate the degree to which American culture has shifted since the 50s, particularly in coastal population centers, presumably as a means of validating your own worldview. (which we all do to some extent)

As for the other point, I'm not just talking about the electoral college, but that's one of the most glaring examples of how archaic America's system is. Were you to fit America with a political system which looked more like Germany (which, in light of the fact that it appears poised to be one of the only European nations to evade the neo-nationalist wave, seems to have been well thought out), Trump wouldn't have gotten into power, and the GOP, if it existed at all, would be significantly less extreme than it is now, and much more inclusive.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:11:01 PM by CaptainCapsase

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159655: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:11:38 PM

As for the other point, I'm not just talking about the electoral college, but that's one of the most glaring examples of how archaic America's system is. Were you to fit America with a political system which looked more like Germany, Trump wouldn't have gotten into power, and the GOP, if it existed at all, would be significantly less extreme than it is now.

That's undoubtedly true. That USA is on the Right and weird and behind with respect to other nations.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159656: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:14:19 PM

[up] Yes, which was my point: the problem the US has is a backwards political system that, by some mixture of design and poor forethought gives rural (white) populations disproportionate say in the political process, even as the influence of white supremacy on the culture and mindset of the overall population has waned.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:15:11 PM by CaptainCapsase

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#159657: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:18:51 PM

Realistically, what would be needed to get rid of the EC?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159658: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:19:35 PM

[up] A constitutional amendment, but that's just one of the issues with America's system. In a way, what's happening now reminds me of the (in)famous Vox article American Democracy is Doomed, which posited that the American political system was on an inevitable course for the sort of constitutional crisis that Donald Trump is likely to cause.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:22:45 PM by CaptainCapsase

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#159659: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:21:44 PM

The public making it an issue that our representatives have to worry about. As it's a voting rights issue, it's easy to wrap up in that along with the whole voter suppression thing. That said, it's also a more technical and less immediate aspect of our system works and can be a little hard to discuss sometimes.

Basically we need to keep bringing up that Clinton did in fact win the popular vote and the EC means that she didn't get it and a whole bunch of votes subsequently don't matter.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159660: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:22:20 PM

But then how does one explain the fact that white revanchism and supremacy passes from generation to generation. Like how does it explain this online racist group around Bannon, many of them are young neo-nazis nurtured on the internet.

How does it explain how Jared Kushner, New Jersey guy whose family backed democrats decided to get involve in this weird stuff.

White revanchism has never been officially discredited and disavowed at the federal level. There are ways to do that, like say measures taken in Germany. Giving reparations (which Adenauer did), acknowledging the crimes and dispossession, truth and reconciliation...Willy Brandt kneeling at Warsaw, Weizsacker's speech and the work done by Germany since the 80s in actively promoting the memory of the Holocaust and other crimes.

It took till the latter half of the Obama presidency where a serious debate on proscribing Confederate memoribilia was being mooted. This should have been done a long time ago.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159661: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:24:45 PM

[up] You have to consider how large these groups actually are; despite its disproportional voice on the Internet (and in the political process), the alt right is an extremely, extremely small movement, gaining sway with only a small sliver of young Americans even when looking just at white males with low educational attainment, and as far as people like Kushner, Trump, and even Bannon go, it's very possible they're self-serving opportunists with no loyalty to any ideology. Kushner almost certainly falls into that category, and I'd be inclined to say Trump does as well.

Groups like the KKK which once had hundreds of thousands of members have dwindled to a little over 1,500, and their successors are only slightly better off in terms of membership. This is very much a demographic and ideological dead end, but unfortunately it's one that's propped up by the structure of the American political system.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:32:41 PM by CaptainCapsase

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#159662: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:32:15 PM

We can only hope that this current climate doesn't lead to an increase in their numbers, though it's definitely going to lead to an increase in their obnoxiousness and public profile.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#159663: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:33:21 PM

Trump and Kushner seem entirely on "Revenge", rather than strong ideologies. Both of them were supporters of the Democrats up until convenience / events that jaded them / pushed them to the Republican Party. Bannon I have no clue, but he seems to be a definite Neo Nazi from everything he's said.

Kushner and Trump is pure Id and fury, though.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159664: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:34:49 PM

[up] Even with Bannon there's some doubt, since some have cast him as an anarchist looking to destroy the state through accelerationism, which is just plausible enough for me not to dismiss it outright.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:35:06 PM by CaptainCapsase

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#159665: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:35:19 PM

As with the Rileys and MedievalPOCs of the left they represent a horribly Vocal Minority. Especially if various anecdotal accounts of small-town life mean anything, as the vast majority of them have never even heard of them.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159666: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:36:55 PM

Kushner I find more interesting than Trump, especially his backstory with Chris Christie.

I guess he and Trump are kleptocrats at heart, and Bannon is probably the same even if he talks like a pseudo-philosopher in these weird interviews and crazy speeches. The Trump phenomenon in my view is part of the cult tradition you see around Ayn Rand and scientology. It has quasi-religious messianism attached to it, but mixed with media showbusiness and star power.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:37:09 PM by JulianLapostat

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159667: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:41:18 PM

[up] The thing is, I wouldn't really mind the showmanship and such if it also came with actual competence when it comes to governing.

But the GOP are shit at governing. The only thing they know how to do — the only thing they care to do — is to line their own pockets, line the pockets of their donors, and to fuck over minorities and poor people.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:43:39 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#159668: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:43:26 PM

A teenager from Washington state has become the seventh person to indicate that she will break ranks with party affiliation and become a “faithless elector” in an attempt to prevent Donald Trump being formally enshrined as president-elect when the electoral college meets on 19 December.

Levi Guerra, 19, from Vancouver, Washington, is set to announce that she is joining the ranks of the so-called “Hamilton electors” at a press conference at the state capitol in Olympia on Wednesday.

The renegade group believes it is the responsibility of the 538 electors who make up the electoral college to show moral courage in preventing demagogues and other threats to the nation from gaining the keys to the White House, as the founding fathers intended.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:43:39 PM by MadSkillz

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159669: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:43:52 PM

Yup they do that very well. Trump in charge is Christmas for them to build the One-Party State they are far more devoted to than "democracy".

[up]

How does a 19 year old become an Elector?

edited 30th Nov '16 5:44:29 PM by JulianLapostat

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#159670: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:45:28 PM

Ok, she's from a state that voted for Clinton, I believe, so I'm not sure what she think she's helping there. Also, why is a teenager an elector?

And Mad Skillz, would it hurt to put in the effort to link to whatever it is you're quoting here? Without a link for all we know you made that up.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:46:12 PM by AceofSpades

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#159671: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:47:13 PM

[up]...Because she's also a young adult? She's 19; she may be young, but she's still a grown woman. I honestly don't see the problem here.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159672: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:47:13 PM

[up][up] It wouldn't surprise me if she didn't know how the EC actually works and thinks she has to vote for Trump too. Either that, or she's just part of the movement trying to convince GOP electors to not vote for Trump.

And being 19, she's legally an adult and old enough to vote.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:47:57 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#159673: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:51:16 PM

Being a young adult is not, in itself, a qualification for any sort of government job or responsibility, nor did it actually answer how she got the position. That was a magnificent non-answer.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159674: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:51:37 PM

So how do Electors get selected? Is it random sortition like Jury Duty or is it some actual post and official position?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159675: Nov 30th 2016 at 5:54:18 PM

[up] They're selected from among the candidate's supporters.


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