TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#159326: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:20:36 PM

So apparently Trump's seriously going to be doing his victory tour of post-election rallies, that wasn't just a rumor. Many people here thought that was a clear sign he was going to be a docile puppet to the GOP, but I don't think that will be the case. These rallies, beyond giving him a massive ego boost, are likely intended as a means of bolstering his burgeoning cult of personality, in addition to the obvious role they have in bypassing the media, which is one of the reasons Trump did so well.

This is a straight up mimicking of a Roman Triumph.

edited 29th Nov '16 12:24:41 PM by MadSkillz

henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#159327: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:21:24 PM

@kkhohoho Didn't someone already post that video here a couple days ago?

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159328: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:21:33 PM

[up][up] His fans on r/The_Donald also seem to think his flag burning comments are intended to bait inevitable protesters into burning flags and thereby making asses of themselves, and by God I think they're actually right. Even if Trump really is as dumb as he acts (and I have my doubts), there's no doubt he's being advised by some brilliant, and very devious social engineers, probably Bannon.

edited 29th Nov '16 12:23:10 PM by CaptainCapsase

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#159329: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:24:35 PM

You come here I will kick you right back to Colorado. Keep that state blue, or so help me! >:[

Well, in the hypothetical scenario where things get so bad that California's secession actually becomes a legitimate option and not just a fantasy for those of us lefters who are terrified of Trump, blue and red states wouldn't matter anymore.

As it stands, the cost of living is in and of itself a profound argument for folks to stay out of California. Here in Colorado, our primary relationship with California is refugees fleeing the insane housing prices. They come here in droves because they want affordable rent without sacrificing accessibility of weed.

edited 29th Nov '16 12:26:41 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#159330: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:25:56 PM

[up][up][up]Yeeup. Me.smile

edited 29th Nov '16 12:26:16 PM by kkhohoho

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#159331: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:25:57 PM

I can't go that far west. Nobody can make a pizza that far west.

Oh really when?
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#159332: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:26:16 PM

So...before this election, who gave a fuck about the DNC?

Because the organization is made out to be some all powerful omnipotent organization with its claws everywhere by idiots on the Left.

I'm started to think they're way of not accepting responsibility for losing

New Survey coming this weekend!
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#159333: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:26:31 PM

Don't protest Trump by burning US flags. Get a bunch of those full-sized cardboard cutouts of Trump and burn them in effigy. (Only trouble with that is, he'll probably receive royalties for the use of his likeness on every one sold.)

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#159334: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:27:45 PM

I can't go that far west. Nobody can make a pizza that far west.

REPUBLICAN LIES!

We have Topper's. We make great pizza just not the same as those Nuyorican pizza.

edited 29th Nov '16 12:27:52 PM by MadSkillz

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#159335: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:30:09 PM

I actually wonder how large of a role legalized marijuana played in this election. Our economy has gone to shit ever since that law passed due to a massive influx of what we've started calling Weed Tourists, despite many of them moving here to stay. Denver became the Marijuana Capitol of the U.S. pretty much overnight.

Since weed tends to be a priority of Democrats more than Republicans, I idly wonder how many Dems weren't voting in other states because they'd relocated here for the drug.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#159336: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:33:56 PM

[up]x3 Or just burn this flag instead.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#159337: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:34:08 PM

Thought: If you really need to burn a Flag to protest Trump, burn down Nazi and Confederate Flags instead. Or Flags with Trump's face on it. That way, you're disagreeing with Trump and the Alt-Right, but you're not giving Trump or the Alt-Right any fuel to fire later down the line.

[up] He just barely beat me to the idea.tongue

edited 29th Nov '16 12:34:33 PM by DingoWalley1

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#159338: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:34:48 PM

Well, in the hypothetical scenario where things get so bad that California's secession actually becomes a legitimate option and not just a fantasy for those of us lefters who are terrified of Trump, blue and red states wouldn't matter anymore.

In such a scenario, if California were to secede it wouldn't do so on its own. In which case, unity with the other western states would be important.

I can't go that far west. Nobody can make a pizza that far west.

This is how civil wars start.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#159339: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:45:56 PM

You know, this talk of secession hasn't stopped being annoying just because it's no longer about Texas or other conservative states defending their "state's right" to be oppressive.

Also I very much doubt that people moving to Colorado for weed had that much of an effect on the election. People don't move for just one reason and as stated a lot of people were moving out of California because of cost of living.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#159340: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:46:23 PM

All this talk about Californian secession has encouraged me to ask... In either the current real-life climate or an appropiately worse fictional version, how do you think a splintering of the USA would probably go?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#159341: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:49:10 PM

In the current situation it couldn't happen. Like at all. Which is why it's fucking annoying. (It's also basically saying "fuck you, I wanna make sure I got mine" on a national scale in a lot of ways.)

For one thing, we have a national army and little in the way of state militias that could stand against federal forces. For two, our infrastructure is a lot more connected today than it used to be, which means that anyone seceding has to make sure that at least the surrounding states go with them or see the loss and rising prices of a lot of resources they're dependent on. For three, secession is a fringe position held by people with a huge microphone and are obnoxious.

Like, seriously, for secession to in any way be feasible a whole lot of things would have to go wrong. Things that extend far beyond the presidency or a party's ability to enact harmful policies.

edited 29th Nov '16 12:50:03 PM by AceofSpades

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#159342: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:49:26 PM

To finish the conversation from earlier and tie it to the present day:

@Hamilton and immigration: Rush Limbaugh said Hamilton "was an immigration hawk" on Tuesday. Politfact rates it HALF TRUE: early on, Hamilton encouraged immigration to bring labour and fortune to the US, with extremely lax standards to even run for office. But after the Quasi-War with France, he supported the Alien and Sedition Acts, but with caveats. His partial change of heart was also partially self-serving and feud-fueled, as per usual: he believed Jeff wouldn't have won the presidency if only US-born had voted.

So again, lots of caveats, lots of little devils in little details. I betcha his initial support of immigration was self-serving as well.

A lot of that comes from Ron Chernow's biography. The thing is Chernow is not an academic historian, he's a popular one. He's not doing peer-review, he's basically creating information and fitting in with the popular sentiments of the time. At that time, Hamilton was unknown...and to give him street-cred, he decided to make him "an abolitionist" while ignoring all the other stuff.

Chernov wasn't the only biographer to overstate Hamilton's abolitionism. In summary, Hamilton looked after his own self-interest, first and foremost, and that meant the interest of the new nation of the USA (the creation of which was its only to rise up, and then whose interest benefits the seat of power where he himself sits), and he would promote that by any means necessary. His support of Laurens' black batallions was entirely practical and logic-based, not principled. Another way of promoting his self-interest was by sucking up to rich people, which meant protecting their property rights.

The musical doesn't whitewash Hamilton as much as you'd think: his early claims of abolitionism.can be read as him trying to suck up to the revolutionary crowd (again, his chance to RISE UP), his later unconditional support of Washington and aggression towards any that would speak ill of him were him shoring up his main political support (and apparently 85% of his impulse control), he wants the Schuylers to get his status high, you'd have to be naive to set that aside, and so on and so forth. All along, it was All About Me.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159343: Nov 29th 2016 at 12:56:52 PM

So again, lots of caveats, lots of little devils in little details. I betcha his initial support of immigration was self-serving as well.

So he was a Trump-esque flip-flopper and inconsistent and capable of throwing any position under the bus for his advancement. Sure, that makes him no different from modern politicians, but it damn sure doesn't make him an abolitionist immigrant story success. That is my point.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#159344: Nov 29th 2016 at 1:04:05 PM

I would contest the "success" part as well. More of an "ambition story". He had a mixed record.

Furthermore, unlike Trump, he had a pretty good understanding of the USA's own interest. In that situation, curtailing potential French influence on US politics made perfect sense. And is the opposite of what Trump is doing. Hamilton doesn't "flip-flop", he changes his mind according to what makes sense at the time. If you want a flip-flopping turncoat with no regard for the nation's interest, I refer you to Aaron Burr, sir.

Really, the only bit that is in question was his abolitionism: only when pragmatic for America. Which is a damn sight better than many of his contemporaries, let's be fair here.

edited 29th Nov '16 1:06:24 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159345: Nov 29th 2016 at 1:14:01 PM

I thought this kind of casuistry faded with the irrelevancy of jesuits. Hamilton saying that Jefferson would not have won the election if only US-born would have voted is equivalent to Trump's "3 million illegals"...end of discussion. Its the same thing, Hamilton is saying more or less that there are two Americans, those born here and those who are immigrants, and one is more "real" than the other. The minute anyone forms that division, he's Trump, I'm sorry.

And Hamilton was a phenomenally unlikable human being. Only Washington put up with him and that's because Hamilton served the President's own interest of having a strong state and constitution. Yeah, Washington was a Federalist in Secret but played neutral in public.

Gore Vidal and Nancy Isenberg have proven that Aaron Burr was a lot more consistent. And Hamilton was more or less responsible for that duel and his own death, complete with having a hair trigger in his pistol...

The historical Burr was no less passionate about the Revolution than Hamilton, and in several respects was far more revolutionary in his thinking. In 1775, he was appointed aide-de-camp to Richard Montgomery, a great general and revolutionary martyr. For courage under fire, Burr received a commendation from Congress. He was not just a disciple of the Enlightenment, but also an advocate for criminal justice reform, freedom of the press, women’s rights, and the rights of immigrants. He would have made an excellent judge if he had accepted the offer he received in 1792 to sit on New York’s Supreme Court. Burr was a skilled innovator in the interest of democracy, working to make elections, financial services, and even the U.S. Senate more fair and transparent. In New York, before the election of 1800, Burr was charged by Hamilton’s Federalist allies with “revolutionizing the state,” because in the state legislature he backed progressive policies for funding internal improvements such as roads and bridges, debtor relief, and establishing a more democratic method of electing state senators. He founded the Manhattan Company, the first bank that was not in the hands of wealthy Federalists alone, and the first to extend financial services to ordinary merchants and mechanics.

As a hero, the musical’s Hamilton represents the American dream in the form of an immigrant-made-good, born on the Caribbean Island of Nevis, then raising himself to high society through sheer determination and genius. Yet Hamilton — and the Federalist Party he headed — were hostile to the idea that the United States should ever be led by newcomers. It was the Federalists who pressed for a constitutional amendment barring naturalized foreigners from elected offices, and it was that supposed villain Burr, in the New York Assembly at the time, who gave an eloquent speech defending the liberal promise of the young republic. “America stood with open arms and presented an asylum to the oppressed of every nation,” he said. “Shall we deprive these persons of an important right derived from so sacred a source as our Constitution?”

And what of that fateful duel that secured the permanent entwining of Hamilton and Burr’s reputations? “Hamilton” suggests that the duel was fought over the election of 1800, and that Burr knowingly shot Hamilton after seeing him fire a bullet in the air. But this is wrong on all counts. Eyewitnesses at the duel agreed that the men had fired within seconds of each other, but they disagreed on who shot first. The real cause of the duel was that Hamilton openly insulted Burr before a group of prominent men (and refused to apologize) when Burr ran for the New York governorship in 1804. The insults were then published in a local paper; the key phrase that led Burr to issue a challenge was that Hamilton had uttered a “despicable opinion” about Burr’s private character. Though Hamilton had said offensive things before, and Burr had repeatedly accepted his apologies, this time, Burr wrote to a friend, it became impossible for him to retain his self-respect and forbear Hamilton’s rude treatment any longer. (Also conveniently omitted from “Hamilton” and most Hamiltonian lore is the fact that Hamilton supplied the pistols, and only Hamilton knew of the secret hair trigger. This gave him an advantage and violated the era’s gentlemanly code of conduct: so much for fairness and transparency.)

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#159346: Nov 29th 2016 at 1:14:21 PM

Hehehe. I will laugh my ass off when all these 4chan alt right kids get their anime torrents throttled.

edited 29th Nov '16 1:15:52 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#159347: Nov 29th 2016 at 1:15:49 PM

Yeah, at this point, even with Democratic Supermajorities it's going to take two eight year Dem terms, if not more just to fix Trump's bullshit.

....and that's WITHOUT factoring the Supreme Court.

New Survey coming this weekend!
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159348: Nov 29th 2016 at 1:17:06 PM

Really, the only bit that is in question was his abolitionism: only when pragmatic for America. Which is a damn sight better than many of his contemporaries, let's be fair here.

You know what was contemporary to Hamilton...The French Revolution in the 1790s. In 1794, The Jacobins abolished slavery without compensation for slaveowners...one of the two times that has happened (second time was the end of the American Civil War).

Maximilien Robespierre who opposed a defense for slavery in France's constitution, dispatched Victor Hugues to liberate France's slave-run colonies, and Hugues arrived in Guadaloupe and led a freedmen-French army non-segregated force to victory against slave-masters and their English allies.

That's abolitionism.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#159349: Nov 29th 2016 at 1:17:23 PM

Well, he was legitimately a "self-made man" as well as an immigrant (I don't know what the consensus was at the time, if there was one, as to whether he was eligible for the Presidency under the "natural born requirement"). The musical about him is not so much vindicating or (depending on how you look at it) giving Hamilton a Historical Hero Upgrade, as it is using applicability to tell Hamilton's story in a way that reflects immigrant stories. Although probably more factualy accurate, it's basically to U.S. history what Shakespeare's plays are to English history.

And I'd say that Hamilton does deserve some vindicating. A lot of the historically negative view of him had to do with buying into Jefferson as the ideal hero of American Democracy, and since the two were enemies, Hamilton necessarily ended up as the villain. A viewpoint of history that's not opposed to a strong central government and also questions the idea of Jefferson's Southern slave-holding gentleman farmers as the image of an American citizen is one that's naturally going to view Hamilton more favorably.

Although Hamilton was the arch-elitist, there is something that is appealing in his representation of the metropolitan America (traditionally in the North) rather than the agricultural America (traditionally in the South). A big thing underlying the current debate over Trump voters is this really ingrained idea that people who live in cities, especially ones in the North are somehow not real Americans and don't possess inherent virtues that rural Americans do.

Hamilton and to a greater extent Hamilton are about challenging this assumption (which is probably why they ended up in a "feud" with the incoming Administration).

Now granted, the comparitor with Trump's America is probably way more Andrew Jackson than it is Thomas Jefferson, but you wouldn't have Jacksonian Democrats without first having Jeffersonian Democratic Republicans.

Edit- Wait. Hamilton opposed people not born in the United States from voting. Wouldn't that quite clearly include himself? I guess that's not very surprising as it seems to be relatively common for immigrants to become natvists against new generations of immigrants. Still kind of weird though because I would have thought that Hamilton would have gotten some pushback in his own lifetime for not being born in the 13 colonies).

Regarding the duel. That's interesting/troubling. I had thought that Hamilton had [1] though- the article lists him as an example, and while does sound like Chernow's characterization is more negative toward Burr, apparently it was known beforehand that Hamilton planned to fire into the air (there's disagreement whether or not Burr himself knew this though).

edited 29th Nov '16 1:26:22 PM by Hodor2

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159350: Nov 29th 2016 at 1:25:51 PM

The point is why replace one myth with another. Jefferson was distorted beyond all proportion but how is doing the same to Hamilton balancing the force. Why do people want to keep Holding Out for a Hero and an ideal vision of America's founding father. Why not show that the Founding Fathers were all a mix of total scum and visionaries which is what Gore Vidal did in Burr?

If you want a progressive vision of democracy, anti-racism and equal rights, then you have to go to the French Revolution which invented modern democracy that the rest of the world accepted when the Communists arrived. The only true modern progressive of that time was Robespierre (and even he didn't want to give the women the vote), which goes to show how crazily radical one had to be to take those positions back then.

And you know Trump and Hamilton have a lot in common. Both are New York Social Climber, who overcompensate for their perceived drawbacks and likewise have tabloid gossip fodder sex lives. Trump is a descendant of German immigrants and his wife is an immigrant too, and yet he takes anti-immigrant positions. There's nothing especially surprising about it.

edited 29th Nov '16 1:28:36 PM by JulianLapostat


Total posts: 417,856
Top