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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#159251: Nov 29th 2016 at 7:23:38 AM

How I felt about America before Trump: 'We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice. Insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure of the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. God bless America. '

How I feel about America after Trump: 'We the acid scarred victims of history of evil and hypocrisy exalt criminals to office. Vietnam, El Salvador, Chile with lovely missiles, roaring bombs of the rich and the white and the pious and burn children and torture women. Forever and ever, amen. God bless America.'

Oh Harvey Dent and Grant Morrison, the two of you sure have a way with words...

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#159252: Nov 29th 2016 at 7:47:48 AM

The fact that Trump is openly considering removing citizenship as a standardized criminal penalty is probably the scariest thing he's done so far. Never mind that the specific instance of flag burning is protected as free speech, if he finds enough people who agree with him or another scenario for implementing it, it would be an enormous threat to democracy as an institution. The fact that this kind of threat could become normalized in political discourse is really frightening.

This is the absolute bottom end of mindless nationalism, and the Democratic establishment really needs to learn how to fight against it instead of feeding it. America is not a special snowflake and we do not owe it blind, unthinking loyalty.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#159253: Nov 29th 2016 at 7:50:33 AM

@Krieger22 That video was surprisingly good.

Jonathan "Fucking Russian Propaganda Mouthpiece" Pie
I think you're being a bit unfair to Pie. He stopped working with RT UK months ago, and even while he was with them, he never really had any kind words for Putin.

edited 29th Nov '16 7:50:42 AM by henry42

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#159254: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:03:01 AM

@Julian

I'm going to suggest that we stay a way from the Roman comparisons. Sure the Roman Republic sucked, but Caesar and what followed was not an improvement. I don't think either of us wants a repeat of our discussion on the subject in the ASOIAF thread.

As for whether dictatorships are bad...they absolutely are. Yes, we, as nations, have a bad habit of supporting one dictator against another, but that hypocrisy doesn't change the reality that dictatorship as a general rule is a bad thing. I say that as someone who is just as happy to condemn the likes of Castro as I am the likes of Jorge Videla (adjusted, obviously, for how bad each of them was comparatively).

Is it possible to have a "good" dictator? Sure, but it's unlikely. More importantly even the "best" dictatorship is inevitably going to start ratcheting up human rights violations simply by the nature of what it is—to be a dictator you have to suppress your opposition. Human rights violations in democracies, conversely, are not a part of the system, but something imposed upon it.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#159255: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:11:14 AM

[up][up]His schtick is RT standard. He still owes them a debt for getting his unfunny series off the ground. Insiders know that he isn't funny, much less does his own material.

And just because he doesn't condemn Putin despite on RT isn't a mark in his favor. Ever heard of "active measures"?

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#159256: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:12:08 AM

Frankly, Trump says so many contradictory things that it makes "believe the autocrat" unfeasible. Take him seriously, yes, but wait to see what he actually does before commencing freakout.

I'm not saying freakout is unwarranted, but if you burn yourself out freaking before he's even inaugurated there will be that much less energy to actually fight him.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159257: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:13:42 AM

[up] Another rule is to not be fooled by any signs of apparent normality. When the autocrat makes threats, take them at their word.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#159258: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:18:59 AM

That's what I mean by "take them seriously''. But simply yelling against every little threat is not going to be effective in the long run. And for all the danger Donald represents, he can't simply overturn the Supreme Court ruling on flag burning nor force everyone to disregard it.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159259: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:24:45 AM

The Muslim registry, the threats to sue the NY Times, and now this.

Our country just elected a POTUS who apparently does not understand or respect free speech.

edited 29th Nov '16 8:26:46 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159260: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:32:47 AM

There's a method to Trump's madness, and certainly to Bannon's. They're (seemingly) taking cues from Putin and co, and seek to make American politics a complete cipher where it becomes difficult to tell fact from fiction and truth from lies. That sort of gaslighting is an essential part of Putin's strategy for maintaining control of Russia's theoretically democratic institutions, and thus far, there isn't really a well charted counterstrategy for opponents to deploy.

edited 29th Nov '16 8:35:28 AM by CaptainCapsase

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#159261: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:34:16 AM

Nor does he have any respect for the law, unless he can somehow make a profit from it. Like by suing anybody who disagrees with him or insults him.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#159262: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:35:35 AM

@Krieger I'll admit that he owes some of his success to RT, but I think he's still been doing pretty well since he left them. The impression I get is that you just don't like him, and I don't intend to argue with you over that..

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
Stormtroper from Little Venice Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: I-It's not like I like you, or anything!
#159263: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:43:01 AM

Yeh, even ignoring freedom and the people™ and all that, the Repressive, but Efficient ones are few and far between, and not exactly easy to improve, change or limit as a terrible but democratic government is, and it's simply that what allows the creation or persistence of a dictatorial government usually aren't good for the governed. The best you can say is that in exceptional circumstances they're a necessary evil.

edited 29th Nov '16 8:43:45 AM by Stormtroper

And that's how I ended up in the wardrobe. It Just Bugs Me!
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#159264: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:48:14 AM

The New Yorker: Protecting Journalism From Donald Trump, it's effectively a summation of what's being discussed in the thread right now, but I think it's worth a read.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#159265: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:48:35 AM

Any regime that censors freedom of thought and violates human rights can go straight into the trash. I'd rather live in a shitty government where I can at least complain about how bad said government is without fear of reprisals by the thought police.

edited 29th Nov '16 8:51:21 AM by Draghinazzo

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#159266: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:51:25 AM

Greg Abbott said in an appearance on Fox News that an Campus Carry law similar to Texas' would've stopped the Ohio State knife attack and basically said "I told you so" as the guy who did it was a Somali refugee and Texas pulled out of the refugee program.

Did I seriously mess up the country name? I even read the damn article...

edited 29th Nov '16 8:57:04 AM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#159267: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:52:27 AM

[up] I thought the guy was from Somalia and not Syria?

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#159268: Nov 29th 2016 at 8:56:21 AM

Don't let them pesky facts get in the way of your xenophobia.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#159269: Nov 29th 2016 at 9:01:26 AM

He was brown skinned, okay? That's all that matters. tongue

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#159270: Nov 29th 2016 at 9:08:38 AM

He was born in Somalia, spent 7 years in Pakistan, then migrated to the US with his family. This means that the Syrian refugee program had absolutely nothing to do with this. Don't try to convince anyone on the right of that, though.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#159271: Nov 29th 2016 at 9:19:50 AM

House Majority Leader, repeal Obamacare now. We will worry about replacing it later

Lol

I can't even get mad anymore. Now I'm just finding some dark comedy in this shitshow for the next four years.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#159272: Nov 29th 2016 at 9:21:53 AM

"Fuck you, got mine."

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#159273: Nov 29th 2016 at 9:28:12 AM

@Julian I'm reminded of a conversation that Jefferson once had with Hamilton. Hamilton was at Jefferson's house once and asked about the three paintings hanging on his walls. Jefferson said that they were Francis Bacon, Issac Newton and John Locke, "my trinity of the three greatest men the world had ever produced". Hamilton responded, "The greatest man.... that ever lived was Julius Caesar."

I want to point out that this is what Hamilton said according to Jefferson long after both of them had retired. Jefferson's selective memory is well established so there's a strong chance he's fudging the history of this incident.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#159274: Nov 29th 2016 at 9:31:19 AM

Elaine Chao, former Secretary of Labor under GWB, and former assistant Secretary of Transportation under GHWB, being tapped for Trump's Secretary of Transportation.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#159275: Nov 29th 2016 at 9:32:36 AM

I am somewhat too scared to look up what her record might be. The other people Trump has tapped in his administration so far were pretty terrible.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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