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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159226: Nov 29th 2016 at 2:15:15 AM

If things go really pear-shaped in the next few years, that crazy Calexit idea might become a lot more appealing. Heck, other states might want in by that point.

Really hoping things don't go that bad.

Disgusted, but not surprised
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159227: Nov 29th 2016 at 2:18:51 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#159228: Nov 29th 2016 at 2:21:01 AM

Who should we consider out Founding Father? Fremont? I'd be okay with that. He was an abolitionist. And I liked his slogan.

"Free Soil, Free Men, and Frémont"

Funnily enough, Fremont was the first presidential candidate of the Republican Party back when it was actually a party worth ascribing to.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159229: Nov 29th 2016 at 2:33:01 AM

The Republican Party was the first real Left-Wing party in American history, at its starting point. It was a party Karl Marx was doing propaganda for in London...no seriously, he was a pro-Union fanboy. The Republican platform at that time was more or less that of the Jacobins during the French Revolution as Eric Foner has noted: Fair Shares, advancement on merit, modernization and urbanization, promotion of cities over towns, abolitonism and anti-racism.

Of course there were moderate and radical wings and Lincoln was from the Moderate wing and Thaddeus Stevens was on the Radical wing. And both of them would roll in their graves to see their party become a Neoconfederate Death Cult, or more likely they would say that it's not his party anymore.

I mean I don't think the American 2 Party system aside from their names has real connections to say Andrew Jackson (founder of the Democrats...though considering the Dakota Pipeline, maybe Old Hickory is still there after all) or Lincoln. The Republican party became a totally different beast with Barry Goldwater, the religious right and Reagan. Its inconceivable to imagine that Fiorello La Guardia, a pro-Union congressman and left-wing mayor was Republican...leave alone Nelson Rockefeller, who was more or less a Trump-esque aristocrat with actual class, elegance and intelligence.

The Democrats these days are probably not even the party of Lyndon B. Johnson, leave alone FDR.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#159230: Nov 29th 2016 at 2:34:03 AM

Wasn't Hamilton the guy who wanted to make USA into a monarchy and wanted Washington to be a Constitutional Monarch?

Sort of. He wanted a strong lifetime president who was less focused on re-election and more focused on governing. A blend between monarchy and republic. Hamilton was a big Washington fanboy so I don't think he wanted to marginalize him and Washington listened to Hamilton more than his advisors. You can see it as a little self-serving in a sense since making Washington a lifetime president would've meant that he'd stay influential for a longer time.

Anyways a constitutional monarch would've been an executive too weak for his liking. His ideal is closer to a king(sans title) with checks and balances put in place and no hereditary succession.

Hamilton argued that if the president is limited to a term of years, then he would have difficulty in establishing any lasting policies due to politics in the legislative process. This he felt would mean the president would spend more time playing politics, rather than ruling the nation. As an extension of this fear, Hamilton also was concerned that presidents would be more focused on their next election, and would essentially limit their actions to those which would give them the greatest likelihood of reelection. Sound suspiciously familiar? Granted, Hamilton could never have imagined the complexities of the nation as it exists today, but he definitely saw the potential short comings. To put his fear in perspective, could you imagine if a president devoted his administration to passing popular domestic legislation, regardless of what the nation might actually require to advance its goals and needs, merely to build a case for reelection? Nearly every president since Wilson has fallen victim to this trap, and Hamilton saw it coming before the ink was dry on the Constitution.

He also wanted a council of representatives that would represent every interest group rather than the population. He saw that as the reason why the colonies split from Great Britain since their interests weren't represented.

And then he wanted lifetime senators because he thought that'd make them more resistant to mob rule. This idea of lifetime appointments made its way into our Supreme Court where SC judges are in their position for life.

Julius Caesar is an example of how history distorts events and how that distorted history had an influence. Like in The Enlightenment, everyone saw Caesar as a bad guy, especially the Left-Liberals. And Jefferson certainly saw himself as a Leftist.

Seems like Hamilton saw Caesar as a man that tried to save the Republic from itself and was his vision of what a strong leader looks like. To be fair, Thomas Jefferson is the one who reported this conversation with Hamilton so he may have been trying to smear Hamilton.

This is based on the mistaken glorification of all things Ancient Rome, and especially the glorification of The Roman Republic. Which is understandable. The Republic was a slaveowning oligarchy, just like England was a slaveowning oligarchy and America revolted to found its own slavowning oligarchy. Utlimately, John Wilkes Booth was a far better antiquarian when he cited Brutus as his hero and cast Lincoln as an American Caesar. And in the 30s, Brecht and Orson Welles again saw Caesar as a Proto-Hitler or Proto-Mussolini. It's only recently with the whole look at the Populare-Optimate tussle, and the greater democratic advances in the western world that we can look at it without that immediate and dangerous identification between any Republic and Rome.

In reality, Caesar's closer to a proto-Napoleon but I guess some would see Napoleon as a proto-Hitler and Mussolini although I heavily disagree with that idea.

edited 29th Nov '16 2:44:05 AM by MadSkillz

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#159231: Nov 29th 2016 at 2:47:38 AM

This a pretty good scene between "Stannis" Jefferson and John Adams on Hamilton from the "John Adams" miniseries.

"Stannis" Jefferson: Mr. Hamilton would have us British in our economy, British in our form of government, British, John, in all but name. He believes that man can only be governed only by force and self-interest. The first is unavailable to him at present so he appeals to our baser instincts. Fear and greed.

edited 29th Nov '16 2:48:15 AM by MadSkillz

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159232: Nov 29th 2016 at 2:58:34 AM

Yeah, that was the pre-2000s Jefferson historiography speaking...today we know that Jefferson as Gore Vidal long pointed out was just as conniving and self-interested as anyone else. And just as driven by fear.

Jefferson was extraordinarily ambitious and quite ruthless. He would write attack ads on Washington under fake names, which Washington found out about (he had an exemplary spy network and information backlog and would totally have been on board with NSA) and snubbed TJ forever after that.

Today, people see Hamilton's idea for a Big Government more positively as Jefferson himself did, when he unilaterally acceded to the Louisiana Purchase and generally governed differently from how he preached. But that's the Thomas Jefferson Life Story...the wide gap between his preaching and his conduct.

I am not on board with the Hamilton-hoopla because its based on wrong principles...that Hamilton is a Immigrant Success Story (The man was opposed to immigrants and wanted to make it harder for them to get loans and settle in), that he was an abolitonist (its an abuse of the term and a dishonor to real abolitionists to apply it to a guy whose wife owned slaves, who negotiated slave purchases on behalf of the in-laws, and who never made one single public speech or any action in favor of it—Real abolitionists take stands, say out loud and take names) and that he would have been a good president (man was phenomenally unlikable and would never have amounted to anything without Washington).

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#159233: Nov 29th 2016 at 3:19:59 AM

[up]The story is more nuanced than you present it. Hamilton's attitude to immigrants changed during his career, he was an active member of a manumission society and collaborated a lot with Laurens, and as for unlikeable, that depends on who you ask.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159234: Nov 29th 2016 at 3:23:05 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
Disgusted, but not surprised
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159235: Nov 29th 2016 at 3:25:50 AM

A lot of that comes from Ron Chernow's biography. The thing is Chernow is not an academic historian, he's a popular one. He's not doing peer-review, he's basically creating information and fitting in with the popular sentiments of the time. At that time, Hamilton was unknown...and to give him street-cred, he decided to make him "an abolitionist" while ignoring all the other stuff.

He also used a lot of letters and other documents that other historians long disclaimed and bacisally made a Hamilton as we want him rather than what he was.

carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#159236: Nov 29th 2016 at 5:48:45 AM

Fires in the Southern Appalachians have taken a hell of a turn for the worse after a front moved through with 60mph+ winds overnight. The entire resort city of Gatlinburg, Tennessee is burning with reports coming in now of hundreds of homes already destroyed. Apparently the evacuation was called so suddenly that the local zoo/aquarium didn't have time to secure the animals, so they have been left to their fates.

Firefighters are stretched thin through the area battling other fires so it will take some time before they can muster up the numbers to push it back.

edited 29th Nov '16 5:49:48 AM by carbon-mantis

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159237: Nov 29th 2016 at 5:52:28 AM

[up] ...I didn't think the "This is Fine" dog comic would be quite this literal.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#159238: Nov 29th 2016 at 5:53:08 AM

Since I can't stand directly linking to Trump's feed, have the inimitable Karl Sharro pointing out that wanting to strip people of their citizenship does indeed make Sisi look liberal. You know, that Sisi. On the other hand, I think I know a Finnish redneck ripoff (I know, I'm embarrassed on behalf of the rest of Finland that aren't neo-Nazis) who probably jizzed his pants hearing about it.

edited 29th Nov '16 6:02:47 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#159239: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:01:55 AM

The difference is Trump talks big and will be a toothless little shit once he gets in office, while Sisi speaks softly and will just have the secret police spirit you away.

That's why the real dictators are always more polite than the blowhards like Trump or Duterte: they don't need to curse you out to get back at you.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#159240: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:05:49 AM

Being loud never stopped Milosevic, Mussolini and Hitler from being effective, though.

Got recommended this elsewhere, I promise it's a lot more tolerable than Jonathan "Fucking Russian Propaganda Mouthpiece" Pie:

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#159241: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:06:19 AM

The Wisconsin Elections Commission has unexpectedly hiked the cost of the recount to $3.5 million, due by close of business hours today. Stein has about seven to eight hours to raise another $2.4 million if she wants a recount in Wisconsin.

That's pretty much it for the recount, it would seem. Donations had already slowed to a trickle, and it was looking very probable that she wouldn't even get the additional half-million she needed to meet her previous $7 million goal. Unless there's a massive surge in donations, there will be no Wisconsin recount.

edited 29th Nov '16 6:13:12 AM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#159242: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:06:37 AM

Really, Bannon? If you don't own a house you shouldn't be allowed to vote? I guess those seven years I lived in a studio apartment disqualified me from voting in your eyes? But how can that be? I'm white!

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#159244: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:09:15 AM

Pretty soon it'll be: "Anyone who disagrees with me should face jail time or lose citizenship."

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#159245: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:12:35 AM

Shit like this is why I give zero ZERO fucks about the fuckers in rural America who voted for this asshole.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#159246: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:19:42 AM

Isn't flag burning a done deal, according to the Supreme Court?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#159247: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:21:37 AM

Yes. Bar an amendment.

Burning flags are a part of free speech protected under the First Amendment's various protections to speech without fear or peril of imprisonment for saying them.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#159248: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:33:52 AM

These next four years are going to feel like a time warp in a lot of ways. The last time flag-burning was really on anyone's talking points list was back in the 90s.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159249: Nov 29th 2016 at 6:35:29 AM

@Tactical Fox

Yeah, I'm having a hard time feeling sympathetic towards them too.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#159250: Nov 29th 2016 at 7:17:08 AM

[up][up] Well, unless you're talking about Jared Lee Loughner note , because he did put up a video of him burning a flag as part of his overall political...mindset.

Which puts it in perspective, I suppose.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

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