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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159051: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:07:00 AM

[up] It's a self-inflicted one too. They did vote for him. It sucks that the rest of us are also stuck on the same raft and none of us stuck pins in it like they did.

Disgusted, but not surprised
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#159052: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:09:34 AM

It sounds to me that, even if Clinton did win, and Congress went Blue, that the Middle Class in America would still be screwed. There are just too many factors in the modern day in age to actively save a large middle class: two that immediately come to mind are the Automation and Outsourcing of Jobs overseas. Even with Trump's promise to bring back Jobs to America, that still won't solve the Automation of Jobs, especially those that a lot of Blue Collars want to come back.

Sadly, I think the USA (and maybe most of the First World) is going to have a Shrinking Middle Class for the next couple of generations, until it's as small as it was in it's Pre-Independence Days (IE, a handful of them). The only thing that can save the Middle Class now is the immediate halt to all technological progress, especially in the Business sector, but that won't happen.

edited 28th Nov '16 11:10:09 AM by DingoWalley1

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159053: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:11:34 AM

Worst comes to worst, there is one way of protest that can inflict punishment...blue voters and blue states who are higher income than Red State owners...can simply not pay taxes. They can say the government is unrepresentative and not catering to their interests and give money and donations to organizations that do. Since most of that tax money has gone to help the red states and their farms...well, that's certainly punishment. The Republican One party state would have to arm a militia against the majority blue state voters or they would have to, raise taxes on the rich.

Best part, its consistent with Randian principles as even devotee Paul Ryan would have to admit.

edited 28th Nov '16 11:12:34 AM by JulianLapostat

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159054: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:14:01 AM

[up] Eh, given that one of the things Trump's detractors gave him shit about (rightfully so) was his dodgy tax crap, that would be a bit hypocritical.

We have to be better than those sovereign citizen assholes. tongue

edited 28th Nov '16 11:15:12 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#159055: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:16:29 AM

I'd be perfectly fine with starving the South of its federal handouts if it didn't result in civil war, which a stoppage of state contributions would almost certainly trigger.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#159057: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:19:31 AM

No, but see, Clinton's plan involved free community college, meaning that middle class folk who once worked jobs that replaced by automation would be able to train in robotics, and potentially get jobs in the automation industry. Those jobs do pay a lot higher and do take a lot of training, so older folks do suffer disproportionately there, but younger folks shouldn't have the same issues.

It was one of the lines that spoke to me, [[Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, that Charlie's father got a job fixing the machine that replaced him in the toothpaste cap factory]]. I know that's not necessarily a scenario that can be directly applied to most real-world circumstances, but you can still take it as a sign than automation is not some big boogeyman to be feared.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#159058: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:23:04 AM

The problem is that only one of the X workers the machine replaced gets to stay and maintain it.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#159059: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:23:59 AM

[up][up] The problem with that is, the minute the market is flooded with kids with Community College Degrees, businesses will look for people with higher qualifications then that, and the loop of "I have to spend a lot to get a good job!" just restarts. The same thing happened in the 70's and the 80's, when large numbers of people actually started attending Colleges, a lot of good jobs just stopped hiring people who only went to High School.

Sure, a kid with a Community College Degree could still get a job, but it wouldn't be a good job, it'd most likely just be pencil pushing jobs. If they ever wanted to get up on the corporate ladder, they would have to spend hundreds of thousands to go to good Universities to get better degrees to get those better jobs.

I'm not against making Community College free, but I'm also aware that doing so would make Community College Degrees as worthless as High School Diplomas. It still doesn't stop the problem of the Middle Class shrinking, either.

edited 28th Nov '16 11:24:30 AM by DingoWalley1

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#159060: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:24:54 AM

Yes, in the short term, automation can be pretty bad for local economies. What would some ways to counter-balance it be?

[up] I think that's an exaggeration. Community colleges would provide career-specific training. I don't know many high schools that do that, outside of specific career-based programs. Almost all the classes that were available at my high school were designed to prepare students for college.

edited 28th Nov '16 11:26:36 AM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#159061: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:38:42 AM

There's also the welfare and minimum basic income options for people that really are out of luck. Of course that's dirty socialism so these idiots would never go for it.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159062: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:44:57 AM

They would be happy with socialism were it come to them first and foremost. They worked dammit...they don't want socialism going to everyone, including them who don't work hard...a black man/woman/hispanic/immigrant has to work thrice as hard to be half as good as the average white man after all...that's their ideas of equality.

Remember the New Deal and other government programs worked because they made it clear to them that they were getting privileged early access.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159064: Nov 28th 2016 at 11:51:46 AM

He's not so much sticking it to them as he is making sweet love to them.

...I apologize for the mental image. tongue

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#159065: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:02:23 PM

It's not the cost of a degree which impacts its worth, it is the standards set on earning it. High school degrees aren't worth much because for one, the schools are set to push as many students as possible through them and two, High school teach very general skills, nothing job specific. Someone with training for example in short-hand, machine writing and language has a good chance to get a more than decent job in a company. That is provided that the community college gives out the degree only to those who actually do have developed the skills the degree suggests instead of giving out said degree for "participation".

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#159066: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:11:46 PM

[up][up] Ugh! Must... get... Brain Bleach!

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#159068: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:38:16 PM

My own hypothesis is that his vastly superior social media operation was a big part of it

I doubt Trump's Twitter account had anything to do with his popularity. He's mainly popular in rural communities; places where many folks don't even know what Twitter is and some of them don't even have a computer.

If Trump had Tweeted his way to victory, we'd be seeing big pulls for him in San Francisco, NYC, Denver, and other metropolitan areas.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#159069: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:39:49 PM

[up]x5 "I told you there's no problem down there." (Rimshot)

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#159070: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:46:37 PM

There was an attack at Ohio State University. No deaths but nine people are hospitalized. The attacker used a car and knives. They were shot by the police.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159071: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:48:51 PM

[up][up][up] I'm not just talking about his twitter presence, I'm talking about the highly dedicated self perpetuating online fandom that his campaign developed.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#159072: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:51:19 PM

I'd imagine that a lot of Trump's dedicated rural base learned about his tweets from the media coverage of them.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159073: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:53:27 PM

A good portion of Trump supporters are White Collegegoers, so they probably got on board the social media campaign. And besides social media doesn't just have to do with twitter.

As this piece on Jared Kushner goes:

Kushner’s crew was able to tap into the Republican National Committee’s data machine, and it hired targeting partners like Cambridge Analytica to map voter universes and identify which parts of the Trump platform mattered most: trade, immigration or change. Tools like Deep Root drove the scaled-back TV ad spending by identifying shows popular with specific voter blocks in specific regions–say, NCIS for anti-Obama Care voters or The Walking Dead for people worried about immigration. Kushner built a custom geo-location tool that plotted the location density of about 20 voter types over a live Google Maps interface.

Soon the data operation dictated every campaign decision: travel, fundraising, advertising, rally locations–even the topics of the speeches. “He put all the different pieces together,” Parscale says. “And what’s funny is the outside world was so obsessed about this little piece or that, they didn’t pick up that it was all being orchestrated so well.”

For fundraising they turned to machine learning, installing digital marketing companies on a trading floor to make them compete for business. Ineffective ads were killed in minutes, while successful ones scaled. The campaign was sending more than 100,000 uniquely tweaked ads to targeted voters each day. In the end, the richest person ever elected president, whose fundraising effort was rightly ridiculed at the beginning of the year, raised more than $250 million in four months–mostly from small donors.

edited 28th Nov '16 12:53:59 PM by JulianLapostat

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#159074: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:55:27 PM

NCIS is for anti-Obamacare voters? Huh. Must have completely missed it.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#159075: Nov 28th 2016 at 12:56:25 PM

[up][up] I was under the impression that the bulk of young Americans, whites included, voted for Clinton if they voted at all. Trump's cadre of millenial supporters seem to be a vocal minority.


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