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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#159001: Nov 28th 2016 at 6:47:12 AM

[up][up]Thank you.

I was rather confused when her name started becoming big after her endorsement of Bernie, because she was a cypher. The day she endorsed Bernie, I had her pegged as a careerist, but I couldn't honestly articulate why. I'll look that up.

EDIT: Ah, shit, she has ties to India's Bharatiya Janata Party (basically Hindu fundamentalists). Anyone who rubs shoulders with these people won't get a cent from me. She can kindly fuck off.

edited 28th Nov '16 6:52:42 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#159003: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:21:06 AM

Bernie Sanders will be on Conan on Tuesday night. Should be interesting to hear his thoughts on the events of the last two weeks.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#159004: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:53:49 AM

Something something I will oppose Donald Trump.

Something something top one percent/millionaires and billionaires.

Something something Democrats abandoned the white working class.

Something something buy my book.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159005: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:57:04 AM

I for one think that Bernie Sanders would not have helped Hillary much. If Hillary chose Bernie as VP, Trump would have tried a new tactic. He would call Hillary Crooked Hillary socialist and start tossing smears about Bernie being a supporter of Castro (he said Cuba had good healthcare) and "our enemies", and then indulge in dog-whistle anti-semitism...and most anti-communist and anti-socialist hysteria in America historically was dog-whistle anti-semitism.

This article explains this further what Bernie faced going forward:

I have seen the opposition book assembled by Republicans for Sanders, and it was brutal. The Republicans would have torn him apart. And while Sanders supporters might delude themselves into believing that they could have defended him against all of this, there is a name for politicians who play defense all the time: losers.Here are a few tastes of what was in store for Sanders, straight out of the Republican playbook: He thinks rape is A-OK. In 1972, when he was 31, Sanders wrote a fictitious essay in which he described a woman enjoying being raped by three men. Yes, there is an explanation for it—a long, complicated one, just like the one that would make clear why the Clinton emails story was nonsense. And we all know how well that worked out.Then there’s the fact that Sanders was on unemployment until his mid-30s, and that he stole electricity from a neighbor after failing to pay his bills, and that he co-sponsored a bill to ship Vermont’s nuclear waste to a poor Hispanic community in Texas, where it could be dumped. You can just see the words “environmental racist” on Republican billboards. And if you can’t, I already did. They were in the Republican opposition research book as a proposal on how to frame the nuclear waste issue.Also on the list: Sanders violated campaign finance laws, criticized Clinton for supporting the 1994 crime bill that he voted for, and he voted against the Amber Alert system. His pitch for universal health care would have been used against him too, since it was tried in his home state of Vermont and collapsed due to excessive costs. Worst of all, the Republicans also had video of Sanders at a 1985 rally thrown by the leftist Sandinista government in Nicaragua where half a million people chanted, “Here, there, everywhere/the Yankee will die,’’ while President Daniel Ortega condemned “state terrorism” by America. Sanders said, on camera, supporting the Sandinistas was “patriotic.”The Republicans had at least four other damning Sanders videos (I don’t know what they showed), and the opposition research folder was almost 2-feet thick. (The section calling him a communist with connections to Castro alone would have cost him Florida.) In other words, the belief that Sanders would have walked into the White House based on polls taken before anyone really attacked him is a delusion built on a scaffolding of political ignorance.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#159006: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:04:51 AM

sad

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#159007: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:07:09 AM

I think that is mostly speculative. Kaine was never a major target of the Trump campaign, I don't think Sanders would have received much more attention. Some PACs would have picked up on these things, though.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159008: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:13:15 AM

Sanders supporters don't appreciate how generous Hillary was being in the primaries for going gently on Bernie. She could have used that on him (I think she definitely should have brought up the Vermont health-care failure and the nuclear-waste thing...because that is like What the Hell, Hero? because those are legitimate causes for concern).

The email hacks at DNC distorted it and Trump basically invoked Bernie as a mock-ally against the establishment even if their policies and personalities are entirely different.

I think Hillary's campaign wasn't any policy failure or idea failure. It was a media failure. They didn't do well to promote her policies and how important she was. IF they talked more about climate change and made that an issue, more Democrat voters would have come out, her policies for health and environment were on the Left-of-Obama as even Noam Chomsky admits. They should also have called the Republican Investigation and the email scandals Mccarthyite which it was...because that is a smear by-word that people recognize and know to be scum.

[up] Kaine wasn't a target because he wasn't well known and offensive enough. Same with Mike Pence who flew beneath the Democrat Party's radar and they didn't bring up how evil his record was on LGBT and women's rights.

edited 28th Nov '16 8:14:37 AM by JulianLapostat

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#159009: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:14:35 AM

Can we please move beyond the 'would Sanders have performed better than Clinton or not' fantasy scenarios? Ultimately it doesn't matter except insofar as we can infer viable campaign strategies for re-consolidating the base going forward. This has been hashed and rehashed over and over again to no effect except causing both sides to reiterate and reinforce their own views. There is plenty of time for discussion in between the awful reality show that is our upcoming presidency, but there is a difference between discussion and intellectual masturbation.

Speaking of said reality show, signs look so far that Trump will go ahead with Ryan's plan to gradually dismantle Medicare (after grandfathering in the elderly established rightwing voters, of course). I'm almost glad over it, because it's the biggest point of attack you could ever hand to the Democrats on a silver platter. But it's not going to do them any good if they're not organized or aggressive enough to capitalize on it.

Being the adult in the room is a hard job when the other person in the room is an abject lunatic. It's a rough balancing act between showing enough spine to control the situation but simultaneously enough flexibility to be the one willing to compromise, because God knows the crazy person isn't gonna.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#159010: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:15:20 AM

The nuclear waste thing is so old and so obscure that it would hardly make an effective campaign point for anybody.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159011: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:20:23 AM

So was whitewater, a nothingburger scandal that Barry Goldwater in his twilight years chided republicans for wasting their time over. But whitewater came back in the election and Hillary's entire campaign became a referendum on Bill's Presidency even if 16 years of Bush + Obama had passed.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#159012: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:35:18 AM

Yes, and the right wing media kept banging the Clinton scandal drums for years (or decades). Not at all analogous to a controversy that was fished up more recently.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#159013: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:49:42 AM

Yeah the Clinton scandals were fresh, they'd been kept preserved in the freezer by Republicans for years.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#159014: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:56:43 AM

Honestly, it doesn't really matter at this point whether Bernie would have won — he might have, or he might not have, who knows. We still lost, the recount won't change anything, and come January, the Democrats will be in a position of such utter irrelevance and powerlessness, they may as well resign en masse, if only to preserve their health in the face of a Trump government. They aren't stopping a damn thing.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159015: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:58:28 AM

Look, eventually the Republicans would have pointed out that Sanders is a Jewish Socialist and that would by itself disqualify and tarnish his chances in a general election. Foreign policy-wise, Sanders being nice to the Sandinistas and giving some praise to Castro...which from a global perspective is absolutely non-controversial but in America those are things you don't do, without an endless cry of outrage and anger. Saint Ronnie Reagan hated the Sandinistas so much he bought guns from Iran to sell to the Contras...that's how EVIL they are, they were willing to accept such blatant corruption and condone it with a "Aw-Shucks" apology from the Prez.

I like Sanders a lot but I feel he's more effective as The Last DJ and a guy who raises policy issues than as someone in political office. Not everyone can be a President.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter at this point whether Bernie would have won — he might have, or he might not have, who knows. We still lost, the recount won't change anything, and come January, the Democrats will be in a position of such utter irrelevance and powerlessness, they may as well resign en masse, if only to preserve their health in the face of a Trump government. They aren't stopping a damn thing.

That's not entirely fair. The Democrats can filibuster appointments and make their voice heard. They can use their votes to block the repeals of Dodd-Frank and other measures. And besides some of the Democrats have friends among the Republicans, and they can maybe get them to sway and block certain issues and get some concessions.

When Mussolini came to power, the Liberals and others walked out of the Italian parliament and that was a stupid mistake because Mussolini was not actually that powerful as he was made out to be at first.

edited 28th Nov '16 9:02:09 AM by JulianLapostat

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#159016: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:02:16 AM

At this point, the cure for Trump is the results of a Trump administration, and even that's not a guarantee, the electorate being the bastion of stupidity that it is. I'm not even sure they can be convinced to vote Democrat again (if they have ever).

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#159017: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:02:59 AM

No. All of these things are overly obscure. And appealing to antisemitism will not work - for one thing, racism has a far stronger pulling force. Which is why Trump did campaign on it.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#159018: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:05:10 AM

Trump pulled on a lot of antisemitism too actually.

Oh really when?
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159019: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:09:20 AM

No. All of these things are overly obscure. And appealing to antisemitism will not work - for one thing, racism has a far stronger pulling force. Which is why Trump did campaign on it.

Huh...anti-semitism IS racism. And Trump's campaign trafficked in many anti-semitic tropes, his supporters, this online racist gang around Steve Bannon, are anti-semites and Bannon himself is one. Sure they are Pro-Israel Anti-Semites but that too is not as rare or especially unsurprising since American Christian Fundamentalists see the return of Jews to Israel as a sign of the end times approaching...There's that ad of Hillary with the Star of Israel around her. And the KKK has long been an anti-semitic group.

The whole hatred for Liberal Hollywood that conservative espouses from time-to-time is nothing but racist dog-whistle. In the old days they would say "Hollywood is run by Jews" these days they can't quite say that, so they say "Liberal Hollywood". They proved that when The Last Temptation of Christ came out, and despite it being made by a Catholic and a Calvinist, they chose to burn crosses on the only guy involved in the production who happened to be Jewish.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#159020: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:15:23 AM

Racism much more commonly refers to skin colour based racism, at least in the US. Which is the sense I am using it. The skin colour based racism is much more politically influential than the antisemitism based one. They are both variations on the same theme, but not identical.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#159021: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:24:57 AM

So, whenever someone brings up "but Sanders totes would have won" long after the use-by date and rebuttals are posted, we are going in circles and readying the circular firing squad? That's helpful. Evidently rebutting it so we can move on is bad form.

And those folks arguing that a Trump presidency means the end of the Democratic Party are only slightly better than the free-weed bros who insist that minorities must fellate upset Lost Cause bloggers now that the latter have already "won". Even in my country where the only people who believe that the current establishment monopoly can be broken are conspiracy theory-minded fuckwits, they still try to fight against things like gerrymandering and try to get people registered to voteAHEM . If complete idiots in worse situations have more of a clue than you, where does that leave you?

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#159022: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:25:11 AM

Here in the US race relations are to the point that we differentiate racism and ethnicism.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#159023: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:31:02 AM

The problem is that we taught people that "bigotry is bad, m'kay?" without properly defining what bigotry actually is.

Disgusted, but not surprised
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159024: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:31:03 AM

[up][up] What Krieger 22 said:

The fact is things change rapidly. Especially these days.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#159025: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:39:13 AM

The problem is that we taught people that "bigotry is bad, m'kay?" without properly defining what bigotry actually is.

Well the general lack of intellectual traditions undoubtedly helped in that.

Even worse is people not listening to people. For a long time nobody thought of listening to African-Americans and so on...these police shootings and arrests and other racial profiling incidents have long been known among the black community and yet when it started happening for the last three years many people, especially white liberals treated it as if it was a new thing and mass incarceration became a mainstream political problem for a brief moment and Obama's justice department played a major part in challenging that.

And that probably played a part in energizing Trump voters because to them, siding with victims against Police is un-American. For them law and order doesn't mean institutions it is something central to their identity because they always took it for granted that authority would protect them from "others". And Obama interfering and righting abuses of local authorities is precisely the "big government" thing they hate. Anti-Semitism and its history is also little known among Americans, especially the manner in which anti-semitism played a major part in the anti-communist movement in US and now with the Cold War over, that has now come into Anti-Liberal movements among conservatives.


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