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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#158726: Nov 26th 2016 at 6:42:02 PM

@Julian: Trying to crush nationalists in that manner worked out excellently for Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire, and, belatedly, the Russian Empire. The KKK was bad enough in spite of the advocates of a more heavy handed approach getting shafted.

edited 26th Nov '16 6:48:08 PM by CaptainCapsase

Stormtroper from Little Venice Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: I-It's not like I like you, or anything!
#158727: Nov 26th 2016 at 6:42:12 PM

We're talking about ideologists sacrificing human life on the altar of their perfect world. Are you going to pretend that there aren't "capitalists" (or "market fetishists", if you prefer) who are against welfare and healthcare on principle and do everything in their power to destroy them? Who, in fact, believe that they are incompatible with "true" capitalism, and freedom, and all great things? Are you familiar with the concept of "Starving the Beast"?

All these exist, yes, they're definitely there and are as you described. However they are not by a long shot the entirety of the non-socialist side. Indeed as I mentioned earlier if we go by what these respective governments have been like, they're few and far-between.

@Stormtroper Yeah, while I still dislike capitalism, I'll admit that it's not incompatible with welfare programs. This is mainly just a problem with neoliberalism.

I very much agree. I'm usually not too in favor of the harsher extremes of liberalism, history is full of examples of that going awry. Indeed my ideal country would have to include strong components of these.

My problem is the idea that the solution to a country's problems is to ditch it all and go commie.

And that's how I ended up in the wardrobe. It Just Bugs Me!
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#158728: Nov 26th 2016 at 6:43:36 PM

[up][up][up][up]They can still get decent share of White Hispanics on their side, but that's more or less correct.

It may not matter though.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#158729: Nov 26th 2016 at 6:51:30 PM

Well Trump's whole idea is he's not Wall Street and he isn't. He comes from real estate and show business. And many of them liked the idea of a guy running a government as a business. And besides the idea that a businessman is inherently opposed to the little guy has never really had truck among Americans. Maybe they saw Trump and said, "He's the real life Bruce Wayne fighting the mentally hill and the colourful two-faced politicians"...or they see him as Iron Man.

Trump's rise has to do with the peculiar nature of American society and values and European class analysis and socialism is not going to apply at all or rather not in the way it's usually applied. Americans have long valued strong individuals and strong leaders, you see this in the proliferation of cults like Jim Jones, Banch Davidian, Ayn Rand (whose ideas would never catch traffic anywhere in the world but in America), the Horatio Alger myth. You can also see this in the way certain business figures like Henry Ford (the car king of Detroit), Edison, Steve Jobs, Walt Disney are valued and made into "great figures" in all disproportion to their actual achievement.

Then of course Trump fits the archetype of American cinema, "the little guy versus the Establishment" which is usually translated as "One Man" versus the Establishment. You see this in Frank Capra's Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, in Kazan's A Face in the Crowd, even in Trump's own favorite, Citizen Kane, and Network ("I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore"). This "One Man" is almost always a white male, and it's a narrative about demagoguery that confuses privilege and crosses political lines...it can be read as both pro-and-anti establishment. So Frank Capra makes movies about the little guy and was mistaken as a liberal but in fact was a Conservative Anti-FDR Mussolini-worshipper. You also see this in the cult of Jesse James, a slaveowning terrorist who fought for the Confederates but was sentimentalized into a hero because he tapped into the anti-establishment feelings of Southerners.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#158730: Nov 26th 2016 at 6:54:38 PM

[up] I prefer materialistic explanations to some sort of bizarre inverted American exceptionalism, since those sorts of cultural arguments necessarily validate the sort of cultural arguments conservatives make about the poor and minorities.

edited 26th Nov '16 6:57:28 PM by CaptainCapsase

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#158731: Nov 26th 2016 at 6:59:24 PM

[up][up]You see, this is the part I dont get, maybe because im from the outside and all but as far I know, there have been always this complain about how Politics in the US are just a pretty show and business is what really influence a president, So trump little act come as little bit weird, since by all logic, Trump IS part of establishment.

edited 26th Nov '16 6:59:56 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#158732: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:04:30 PM

Even Marx said that America wasn't included in his general analysis. He said that England, USA and maybe Holland were nations where Communism could come to power peacefully. That was in the age of Lincoln and Reconstruction admittedly. Marx's analysis of class also didn't take into account the middle class. His definition of the bourgeosie was the top 1%...the middle-class of shop-owners, small businessmen, teachers and others were seen as marginal...he failed to predict how the stock and bond market would empower that class

Marx also did not have predict or reckon with the overwhelming power of US Mass Media. And Donald Trump is a product of the Mass Media. His entire campaign came because he was on the Apprentice which gave him the illusion of being a "serious businessman" out of all disproportion to his record. How else would a man with no political experience and never having held political office takes power. His platform was mass media and his appearance on TV.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#158733: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:04:33 PM

[up][up]He is. Since he's donated to both parties and backed both parties repeatedly.

The thing is a lot of rich people honestly hate him, even if he's in their own class, he's seen as a Schlub. Crude. Boorish. Tacky. Even though he's third generation wealth. He's more landed gentry than a lot of his peers but he apparently pisses off a lot of those peers because he acts like a Nouveau Riche. (i.e. he lacks class)

So he's an outsider of their social circles.

And the schlub-yness is how he looks like an underdog: He walks, talks and sounds like a working class American who got comically rich overnight.

edited 26th Nov '16 7:07:31 PM by PotatoesRock

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#158734: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:07:18 PM

You can also see this in the way certain business figures like Henry Ford (the car king of Detroit), Edison, Steve Jobs, Walt Disney are valued and made into "great figures" in all disproportion to their actual achievement.
Henry Ford is an interesting example, because it wasn't just that many Americans thought that he represented the ideal individualist, capitalist, "self-made man." Henry Ford thought that way about Henry Ford.

Among him and many other figures, the mindset that "I did x, y, and z, and I turned out great" shaped much of their future endeavors and political activism, such as Ford's policies towards his employees, and his museum in Dearborn (which I'm reading about).

edited 26th Nov '16 7:10:43 PM by Eschaton

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#158735: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:07:36 PM

[up][up][up][up]Trump, however, isn't part of the Elite Inner Circle of one-percenters. He desperately wants to be, and the true Elites treat him as an occasionally useful tool, but mostly he's just the obnoxious wanna-be who follows the "in-crowd" around without being accepted as one of their number. And when one of them pays him the slightest bit of attention, condescending though it may be, Trump turns to his yes-men and crows: "See? They like me! That means I'm cool!"

edited 26th Nov '16 7:08:09 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#158736: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:08:43 PM

Every group Trump tries to claim membership in hates him. He's proud of being a New Yorker? He's absurdly unpopular in New York City. He tries to claim he's one of the wealthy. The wealthy hate him. He claims Scottish ancestry. The Scots create a never ending litany of bizarre and creative insults against him.

It's actually pretty impressive. Trump totally fails to have the values of any of the groups he tries to cozy up to.

Stormtroper from Little Venice Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: I-It's not like I like you, or anything!
#158737: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:12:27 PM

[up][up]You see, this is the part I dont get, maybe because im from the outside and all but as far I know, there have been always this complain about how Politics in the US are just a pretty show and business is what really influence a president, So trump little act come as little bit weird, since by all logic, Trump IS part of establishment.

I'd wagger when they mean 'the establishment' they're referring specifically to career politicians.

You can also see this in the way certain business figures like Henry Ford (the car king of Detroit), Edison, Steve Jobs, Walt Disney are valued and made into "great figures" in all disproportion to their actual achievement.

I may be out of the loop, but... why Disney?

And that's how I ended up in the wardrobe. It Just Bugs Me!
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#158738: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:13:01 PM

Thought you lived in Wilmington? That's a pretty diverse city as far as I was aware.

I say I live in Wilmington but that's actually about an hour away. My town right now is basically a bunch of houses built on some abandoned golf courses off the side of a highway. I live on the 16th hole actually.

Still small enough that when stuff asks for City for my address I have to put down Wilmington though.

edited 26th Nov '16 7:13:27 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#158739: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:14:05 PM

[up][up] Walt Disney was repeatedly told that he was going to fail, but massively succeeded anyway. Everyone thought that Snow White and Disney World were both horrible mistakes, but they were ridiculous successes.

Walt Disney also had what is arguably the biggest cultural impact of any of those figures in American history, because everyone has seen at least one Disney film, probably many more.

edited 26th Nov '16 7:15:47 PM by Zendervai

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#158740: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:15:39 PM

[up][up][up][up]In order to be truly part of a group, one needs to make friends and allies. But having no motivations beyond self-interest and self-promotion only makes you enemies. The only people he actually cultivates a good relationship are people who are working for him- people who he sees as below him.

edited 26th Nov '16 7:16:24 PM by Gilphon

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#158741: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:16:26 PM

Among him and many other figures, the mindset that "I did x, y, and z, and I turned out great" shaped much of their future endeavors and political activism, such as Ford's interaction with his employees.

Yeah, American businessman have a level and position pretty unique in western societies. Like if you look at the 100 Greatest Britons there aren't many businessmen. There's just Richard Branson at number 88. It's most staffed by scientists, artists, military men, engineers, politicians. This isnt to say England is some socialist paradise...this is the cradle of capitalism after all. But it shows that culture does enable societies and people a position and authority that varies from place to place.

And you see it in the Popular Culture. America's greatest film, Citizen Kane is about the unfulfilled life of a businessman, Batman is a billionaire, as is Iron Man and many others. Before Trump you have Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt and other "titans" of industry, you have the proto-Trump that is Howard Hughes.

Walt Disney also had what is arguably the biggest cultural impact of any of those figures in American history, because everyone has seen at least one Disney film, probably many more.

The other thing is that what really made money for Disney was not his movies but the Theme Park. That was the true reason for his great fortune and that theme park is a huge bits of land (the one in Orlando is apparently the size of San Francisco which is just obscene). Because after his early successes, Disney made a few flops and became marginal until the Theme Park. And Disney is credited as a creator even if the animation was done by many others who aren't well known, and he is praised for being a "visionary".

edited 26th Nov '16 7:19:28 PM by JulianLapostat

Stormtroper from Little Venice Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: I-It's not like I like you, or anything!
#158742: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:18:22 PM

[up][up] Walt Disney was repeatedly told that he was going to fail, but massively succeeded anyway. Everyone thought that Snow White and Disney World were both horrible mistakes, but they were ridiculous successes.

Walt Disney also had what is arguably the biggest cultural impact of any of those figures in American history, because everyone has seen at least one Disney film, probably many more.

Yeah, that's why I asked. I can understand Ford, Edison and Jobs, but as far as I know Disney deserves all the credit he's given, hence my question.

And that's how I ended up in the wardrobe. It Just Bugs Me!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#158743: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:26:01 PM

Disney was legitimately very good at a couple of things, mainly having a strong grasp of what the mainstream audience would enjoy and being able to sell his vision convincingly to a bunch of people. He was basically a very hands-on producer for the films he actually had a significant influence on.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#158744: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:29:28 PM

Plus he has a cool ass last name.

tongue

New Survey coming this weekend!
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#158745: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:34:14 PM

This video by The Mysterious Mr. Enter is very relevant to recent events. It starts out as a cartoon review of sorts, but quickly morphs into a discussion on the extremes of the left and right (Enter calls himself a centrist), and he brings up many valid points, about the media being full of shit on all sides, and about how the behavior of the extreme left ("But that's just an isolated incident, right?") isn't helping.

Skip to 1:54 for the specifically political content.

edited 26th Nov '16 7:34:34 PM by BonsaiForest

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#158746: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:39:15 PM

My main problem with him is that he seems to adopt a Golden Mean Fallacy. We shouldn't ignore the examples of lunacy and stupidity on the extreme left, but you don't have to be a centrist to repudiate that behavior.

It's a denial of the highest order to pretend that the right wing's worst excesses aren't more dangerous and politically relevant at this point. The alt-left can eventually grow in power but it's not really in a political position to cause much harm at this time.

FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#158747: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:41:40 PM

I really wish people would stop calling them the "extreme left", THE EXTREME LEFT ARE THE FUCKING COMMUNIST AND SOCIALIST REVOLUTIONARIES! NOT A HANDFUL OF MORONS ON THE INTERNET

advancing the front into TV Tropes
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#158748: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:42:37 PM

Which again, really ties into the golden mean bullshit.

Oh really when?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#158749: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:45:56 PM

[up][up] And there are absolutely people with authoritarian leanings in the social justice community and on the economic left. They aren't nearly as dangerous as the right in its present state, but that can and might change extremely quickly for someone who isn't watching carefully.

edited 26th Nov '16 7:46:44 PM by CaptainCapsase

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#158750: Nov 26th 2016 at 7:50:01 PM

Re: fossil fuel countries

Change is pretty much like poison to those who didn't diversify enough. Renewable energy is like robotics - both sectors have reached the tech-economics tipping point.

As for Socialism - imho - we got to ship it with Capitalism cause we need the best points of the two to survive. Less monoculture thinking please, World.

Disney is one of the best fanficcers ever.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.

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