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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#158651: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:22:59 PM

[up][up]In that case, you'll never EVER get any sympathy from me either. Just a FYI.

Showing these people sympathy and talking to them is the only chance we have at trying to knock some common sense into them, and if we're ever going to try and heal the divide in this country, then it's something we need to at least try to do. Because if we don't, then it's Civil War II, mark my words.tongue

edited 26th Nov '16 2:23:30 PM by kkhohoho

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#158652: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:25:05 PM

[up][up][up]Okay. And then what?

Because they already think the official policy for themselves is "fuck off and die," and that's how we wound up here.

edited 26th Nov '16 2:25:35 PM by Eschaton

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#158653: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:25:45 PM

@Tactifox: Sure, the twenty-year-old daughter of the unemployed coal miner has been fucking humanity over forever. We should never reach out to her, her brother, her grandmother. Listen to yourself.

On a sillier note, and since we're in Fictionalndpedia, see here, Ma and Pa Kent, decent folks, as decent as they come... do you think they'd have voted Trump this year? Would that have made them unforgivable and undeserving of being talked to?

edited 26th Nov '16 2:26:41 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#158654: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:26:12 PM

I don't expect nor do I think it particularly fair that the minority people be the one doing that work. If any of them want to, by all means, but the betrayal and disregard for them is too much.

White liberals on the other hand should be doing that work if at all possible.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#158655: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:26:19 PM

Also, fucked over humanity for generations? What the fuck, stop the presentism.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#158656: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:27:26 PM

[up] If Trump and the GOP don't stop with the climate change denialism, that statement might be accurate.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#158657: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:28:14 PM

Will be accurate, not has been.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#158658: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:29:11 PM

Do you honestly expect them to backtrack on that though? The party is filled with climate change denialism because of short-sighted greed and willful ignorance.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#158659: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:30:28 PM

Good point.

The worst part is, this all seems unnecessary. It's not like the oil companies can't afford to switch to renewables; they have the capital, they have the men, they have the power. I think they're in some sort of game of chicken due to one of those Nash Equilibrium traps due to perverse incentives.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#158660: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:35:06 PM

OPEC countries would lose a lot in the changeover, and that also adds to the incentives.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#158661: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:37:20 PM

They are. The one who sticks to coal, gas and other CO 2 emitting fuels while the others go to renewables is likely to remain King of the Hill, while the others get sued by their shareholders and lose profits, I'd wager.

Most of society's economic issues are due to essentially Nash-ing because the one who serves last wins, economically speaking.

OPEC countries would lose a lot in the changeover, and that also adds to the incentives.
Yeah. We already have Venezula collapsing in on itself. Now imagine the Russian and Saudi Arabian economies folding in on themselves. (And there's signs it's happening to the Sauds already). Along with plenty of the Middle Eastern states.

Wheeeee, the world burns.

edited 26th Nov '16 2:39:42 PM by PotatoesRock

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#158662: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:38:10 PM

Aren't they themselves advocating for and investing in green energies and situated in the middle the damage area of Global Warming?

Because if they hold that kind of sway, then we haven't made much progress since the times of Slave Power in DC.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#158663: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:40:13 PM

@henry

How in the heck do you know so little about the candidate you yourself are pushing? Stein has money invested in almost every corporation she denounced.

On a sillier note, and since we're in Fictionalndpedia, see here, Ma and Pa Kent, decent folks, as decent as they come... do you think they'd have voted Trump this year? Would that have made them unforgivable and undeserving of being talked to?

Given that their own adoptive son is an illegal alien whom Trump would cheerfully try to deport...yeah, yeah it would.

That's without getting into the fact that the character at DC who most often spouts Tea Party style rhetoric is Luthor. Who, as you may have noticed, they're not overly fond of.

edited 26th Nov '16 2:42:02 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#158664: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:40:58 PM

The old Steinbeck Temporarily Embarrassed Millionaire might have had something to do with this situation too.

These guys need to see In The Heights.

[up]Unfortunately, those are poor predictors. We've heard, right here, several stories of extremely decent people voting for Trump because they're misinformed and/or out of misguided partisan loyalty, even when Trump actually is against every single thing they stand for.

edited 26th Nov '16 2:49:10 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#158665: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:45:48 PM

I think so, a lot of it's probably waiting for the roll over moment, so to speak, where it becomes more fiscially sustainable/rewarding to do so.

I'm pretty sure Republicans feet dragging by insisting on sticking to Coal, Oil and Gas also is holding it up. Which is on that front economically, reasonable in a shortsighted sense, unfortunately. Because the moment you make Oil worthless, the Dakotas might as well turn into a Mad Maxian Post-Apocalypse Hellscape, relatively speaking.

Economic disruption is a bitch.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#158666: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:50:31 PM

I mean, I don't think anyone thought it was realistic to get the world to quit fossil fuels cold turkey. All the rest of the world is doing that the GOP isn't acknowledging that we have a dangerous addiction.

Like, that's literally it. Plenty of people aren't actually doing anything about it, but at least they acknowledge that the problem is real.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#158667: Nov 26th 2016 at 2:51:48 PM

That's why you plan those things out and don't let the footsoldier citizen pay for the change. You retrain, you relocate, you diversify, you help people out. You don't just make them obsolete and then leave them in the curb. They're not machines, they're human beings, with feelings, aspirations... and votes that are worth five times as much as yours.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#158668: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:08:47 PM

Unfortunately, those are poor predictors. We've heard, right here, several stories of extremely decent people voting for Trump because they're misinformed and/or out of misguided partisan loyalty, even when Trump actually is against every single thing they stand for.

I think the election has largely put people (liberals, especially) in an extremely uncomfortable position in terms of what they have to do going forward.

Because honestly, I've gotten the impression that besides the xenophobia, racism, and apathy the other big pillar in Trump's rise was the startling ignorance in the US.

So many people living in small towns which are basically time capsules, where they have very little in the way of economic or educational opportunities, and their main sources of information as to what goes on in the outside world are open TV and maybe a few shitty radio stations.

So these people had no real idea that they were presumably being conned, or any of the horrible implications and consequences that would come to pass if Trump won.

However, it doesn't really change the fact that by voting for him they were complicit in all the horrible shit that Trump symbolizes and the terrible things he's going to do going forward. Ignorance and malice are different things, but in many cases they have the same result.

So I think that people who ARE aware of the things Trump is going to do, and fear that their rights and lives might be in danger, have every right to resent them for that, because whether they realized it or not, they have part of the blame.

...but because of their lack of education, those people don't have the intellectual or moral framework to understand just WHY people are so mad at them. Unless something gives, it's just gonna be people talking past each other.

henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#158669: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:08:57 PM

@AmbarSonofDeshar

Stein has money invested in almost every corporation she denounced.
I assume you're referring to this article from The Daily Beast.

Here's an excerpt from the response on her campaign's website:

Like many Americans who hold retirement accounts, pension funds, or who invest in the American economy, my finances are largely held in index funds or mutual funds over which I have no control in management or decision-making. Sadly, most of these broad investments are as compromised as the American economy - massively degraded as it is by the fossil fuel, defense and finance industries. Over the years I have taken steps to divest from the worst of these holdings - transferring my checking and savings accounts from Bank of America largely to a credit union, and divesting from GE, Dupont and Merck stocks I had been given decades ago.

While I have explored “green” mutual funds, I found their investments in fracking and large scale biofuels not much better than the non-green funds. I have not yet found the mutual funds that represent my goals of advancing the cause of people, planet and peace. Admittedly I have not spent a lot of time researching elusive ethical investments. I prefer using my time fighting for social, economic and ecological transformation, and recycling capitalist money into the fight to do so.

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#158670: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:26:38 PM

And let's not forget there's also probably a ton of low information voters who barely even follow politics that closely, either out of lack of resources/time or just sheer disinterest. And may have gone "Eh, tired of politics as usual, hey it's Donald Trump from The Apprentice, he's a pretty successful guy! I'll vote for him. And that E-Mail stuff I heard a blurb about sounded pretty shady. 🤔"

edited 26th Nov '16 3:27:20 PM by PotatoesRock

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#158671: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:30:29 PM

I don't think those kinds of people, people who don't pay attention to politics and aren't interested in doing research on the candidates, should vote, and I doubt they do.

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#158672: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:40:59 PM

Yeah. We already have Venezula collapsing in on itself.
What does Socialism being dumb have to do with renewable energy?

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#158673: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:42:47 PM

Venezula is an OPEC country. Part of its collapse is because their oil reserve value imploded due to the recent drop on barrel prices.

If the oil reserves become functionally worthless / funny money, the countries relying on them to prop themselves up are going to find themselves in a proverbial barrel. Which leads to social unrest.

And a fair number of Middle Eastern countries rely on their oil holding economic value to not implode on themselves. Saudi Arabia being a key example where they throw money at the populace to keep things stable and keep them out of grunt work by importing foreigners. When they can't sustain that any further (say due to Oil becoming worthless due to a massive shift in renewables).

"Whelp." doesn't even begin to describe how bad it goes.

edited 26th Nov '16 3:46:57 PM by PotatoesRock

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#158674: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:52:46 PM

I tend to think that the majority of those who actually voted were just going by name recognition, and knew very little about the actual issues or the candidates' platforms. Nor could they be bothered to find out.

It's this attitude of complete indifference to politics that (I suspect) allowed Arnold Schwarzenegger to be elected Der Guvernator of California in that recall election. "Hey, Ah-Nuld is on the ballot! Let's vote for him!" (giggle, snicker...)

Then, when the results came in: "...he fucking won??"

Same goes for Jesse Ventura, Sonny Bono, Clint Eastwood, Al Franken...

edited 26th Nov '16 4:30:50 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#158675: Nov 26th 2016 at 3:53:22 PM

[up][up]"Socialism is dumb" would be an offensive statement if it weren't so utterly meaningless.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

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