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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#158051: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:07:43 AM

I'm sorry, but this is another worrisome aspect of liberal elitism that I think needs to die. Specifically, this notion that the conservative white working class "just don't know what's good for them," and that they aren't "worthy" of the Democrats' help until they "know better."

That was more or less the point I was making.

It's intellectually dishonest to pretend those communities aren't largely anti-intellectual, fundamentalist, and at best "race apathetic" if not outright racist, but at the same time that's merely a diagnosis. It doesn't actually help fix the situation.

As Capsase noted though, this is less about rural America and moreso the Midwest.

edited 23rd Nov '16 8:08:25 AM by Draghinazzo

InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#158052: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:09:31 AM

HRC didn't do a good job of reaching out. It doesn't matter if Dems have the right answers if they fail to reach the people they affect the most.

It's the issue with echo chambers, they make it hard to reach out to folks not directly in those circles.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#158053: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:10:04 AM

[up][up][up] Sadly, they may very learn the hard way that there is always something to lose. Like maybe the ACA and Medicare.

HRC should have tried to reach out more to the Rust Belt. But, as people like Trae Crowder the "Liberal Redneck" pointed out, her chances of success probably would have been slim (though still better than zero) anyway. Being honest with those people about the reality of coal's decline was not going to score points with most of them.

edited 23rd Nov '16 8:13:40 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#158054: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:10:32 AM

West Virginia is the absolute best example I've ever seen of people repeatedly voting against their best interests. West Virginia is obsessed with coal, to the point that the coal companies do everything in their power to prevent anything else from setting up shop in the state.

You know what else West Virginia could have switched to? Logging. Paper. Lumber. Unfortunately, the coal companies use the single most insane mining method I've ever seen (they literally blow the tops off of mountains, letting the debris just rot in the valleys) which is ruining WV's ecosystem, poisoning the rivers and destroying any chance the state has at ever diversifying. If West Virginia had used logging as it's main industry, it would probably be a lot more like Washington State or Oregon right now. (I've noticed the logging states tend to go blue while the coal states tend to go red. Interesting, isn't it?) Instead the natural beauty of the state is literally dying, other industries have given up on trying to get in, and the people keep voting against their own futures. When the coal runs out, West Virginia is going to have absolutely nothing left.

What happens in places like North Carolina is infuriating. In West Virginia, it's a Shakespearean Tragedy.

edited 23rd Nov '16 8:13:28 AM by Zendervai

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#158055: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:16:38 AM

[up] Didn't they pick a DINO as their governor over a Republican because the DINO was very coal-friendly? Nevermind that the DINO was a pretty shady guy.

edited 23rd Nov '16 8:17:44 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#158056: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:21:17 AM

The idea that all GOP voting groups can't be convinced to serve their own interest and vote Democrat is probably false. Sure the Religious Right and the Racist KKK crowd won't vote blue but we know that the Rust Belt can vote blue as it's has done for a long time, it's not about winning over hardcore Republicans, it's about winning back dissatisfied democrats.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#158057: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:21:19 AM

Then talk to them. Not from the perspective as an enlightened liberal here to save the poor downtrodden blue collar workers like you're a freaking evangelical minister preaching to impoverished African tribes, from the perspective of someone that genuinely understands (or, in Trump's case, is good at acting like he genuinely understands) these issues and genuinely wants to help these people. Or, in other words, if you want to reach someone, you have to speak their language, and not complain that they don't speak yours.

Straight up a lot of liberals don't care about blue-collar workers. They feel bad for how shitty their lives are, but they don't care about their lives, their communities, their culture, and as such don't really see why they all don't just pack their bags and move into the big cities like "civilized people".

It's kind of like how people are surprised that after losing their biggest industry (and thus their livelihoods, homes, and communities) and being more or less torched to the ground during the deadliest war in American history the southerners of the late 1800s weren't absolutely ready to move into the big cities and get in line with the horrors of the second industrial revolution. These groups, they don't break when they are beat down. They bunch up, and solidify.

Don't say "coal's fucked, your jobs are fucked, your lives are fucked", say "we're gonna bring jobs back, the best jobs", and just don't mention what type of jobs they will be. Say "we're going to make these places great again", because at the end of the day what these people want isn't coal, they have no particular attachment to coal, they just want to return to a time when their towns and schools and jobs and communities weren't slowly dying off.

edited 23rd Nov '16 8:23:51 AM by InAnOdderWay

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#158058: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:24:42 AM

So, about Keith Ellison's candidacy to DNC chair. I see he was a Sanders supporter, a minority member and a Muslim. Given that the Democratic Party has to rely on an alliance between minorities and a sufficient amount of white people, the first two may be a good combination. The last is certainly a good contrast to the evil dog.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#158059: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:26:21 AM

[up] If he does win the seat, let's hope he turns out better than some of the others Sanders supported this cycle.

If I were a superstitious person, I'd swear Sanders was a jinx or something.

edited 23rd Nov '16 8:27:07 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#158060: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:41:43 AM

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/the-coal-industry-is-dying-and-it-isnt-coming-back/

From an unabashedly liberal site. It is rather pessimistic about coal's future and Trump's promise to save it. The comments are pretty amusing, although some of them are rather harsher towards the Rust Belt voters than this thread so far.

edited 23rd Nov '16 8:45:07 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Shippudentimes Since: Dec, 2012
#158061: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:50:37 AM

This is all making that revival Futurama episode where Nixon's head in the jar, upon winning the Earthican Presidential election (i.e., president of all Earth), due to some time paradoxes rewriting the fact that a decent, hard-working liberal candidate from the future (trust me, Makes Sense In Context) winning the election and preventing Nixon's election and his future from happening (a future that is essentially what the worst future with Trump is predicted to be), thus erasing his own existence, builds a giant force-field fence to prevent literal illegal alien immigrants coming to Earth extremely Harsher in Hindsight. And that episode aired in ''2012', when Romney was neck-and-neck with Obama and Trump was spewing birther conspiracies, a plot point brought up in the episode.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#158062: Nov 23rd 2016 at 8:59:26 AM

Even if coal and automobile industries come back booming - which would have to be through a lot of federal subsidies - they're increasingly automated, which means those factories and mines will operate with way less workers and most of the current ones aren't able to be retrained effectively.

So technically, when Trump said he'd bring back industry and jobs, he wasn't lying, he just didn't mention that the old workers wouldn't see any benefits from it.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#158063: Nov 23rd 2016 at 9:34:07 AM

Guess who now likes Obama? Trump that's who.

President Barack Obama has a new fan: Donald Trump.

Inter arma enim silent leges
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#158064: Nov 23rd 2016 at 9:40:29 AM

I'm sorry, but this is another worrisome aspect of liberal elitism that I think needs to die. Specifically, this notion that the conservative white working class "just don't know what's good for them," and that they aren't "worthy" of the Democrats' help until they "know better."

Well, they don't. So what's your point? The exaltation of the brainless is what got us into this mess.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#158065: Nov 23rd 2016 at 9:44:56 AM

[up][up] Same guy who talked about jailing Hillary during the election, then later said she was super gracious in defeat and said the Clintons were a great family and that prosecuting her would be very divisive for the country.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if he turned on Putin too just because he said something mildly insulting to him during negotiations.

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#158066: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:11:03 AM

I'd love to see what Breitbart has to say about this. They've already flipped their lid about Trump recanting on his promise to jail Hillary.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#158067: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:13:15 AM

[up] Trump has since recanted his recantation insofar as he "won't rule out" his department of Justice under Jeff Sessions prosecuting Clinton.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#158068: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:14:01 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if he keeps flipflopping on the flipflops to the point where people lose track of what his last statements were.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#158069: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:14:39 AM

So DeVos is secretary of education, a major proponent of privatizing education. Carson appears to be HUD secretary, and Nikki Haley is UN ambassador. The Swamp continues to get deeper and smellier.

edited 23rd Nov '16 10:16:44 AM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#158070: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:22:33 AM

Haley seems like she could be a Token Minority and person for the administration to blame, but is there anything against her besides lack of experience? Her bio paragraph could be taken for that of a reasonably left wing politician.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#158071: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:23:35 AM

[up][up]So much for not believing himself to be qualified for the administration. Also, to steal a Colbert Joke: it's like he drained the swamp and decided to build the cabinet with the stuff he found at the bottom.

edited 23rd Nov '16 10:23:46 AM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#158072: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:24:23 AM

[up][up][up]Pyramids for housing people and grain!!

edited 23rd Nov '16 10:24:44 AM by nightwyrm_zero

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#158073: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:27:56 AM

[up][up] In fairness, Carson said that in response to an offer of several cabinet positions that were far more consequential. Not that he has even the beginnings of a background for any appointment other than maybe Health and Human Services or Surgeon General.

edited 23rd Nov '16 10:28:26 AM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#158074: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:29:59 AM

Plans in the works to gut the bureaucracy, is likely to be led by Bannon

Edit: Excerpts.

Hiring freezes, an end to automatic raises, a green light to fire poor performers, a ban on union business on the government’s dime and less generous pensions — these are the contours of the blueprint emerging under Republican control of Washington in January.

These changes were once unthinkable to federal employees, their unions and their supporters in Congress. But Trump’s election as an outsider promising to shake up a system he told voters is awash in “waste, fraud and abuse” has conservatives optimistic that they could do now what Republicans have been unable to do in the 133 years since the modern civil service was created.

Gingrich predicted that Stephen K. Bannon, a former Breitbart News chief who helped steer Trump’s campaign and is now one of his most influential advisers, would lead the effort. “It’s a big, big project,” he said.

The project aligns with Bannon’s long-stated warnings about the corrupting influence of government and a capital city rampant with “crony capitalism.”

Breitbart headlines also provide a possible insight into his views, with federal employees described as overpaid, too numerous and a “privileged class.”

“Number of Government Employees Now Surpasses Manufacturing Jobs by 9,977,000,” the website proclaimed in November. There are 2.1 million federal civilian employees.

However, there is some grain of truth in that the civil service needs reforming.

Many inside and outside government agree that change to the way federal workers are hired, promoted and disciplined is long overdue. Employees under investigation for breaking the rules can sit at home for years — collecting paychecks and benefits — while their cases drag on. Performance rankings are widely panned as a joke, because the vast majority of workers are rated as exceeding expectations or doing outstanding work.

Federal workers are seldom fired for poor performance — and it can take years for managers to make a successful case for dismissal for misconduct. About 0.5 percent of the civil service gets fired every year, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

“The civil service system fails at almost everything it was designed to do,” said Paul Light, a civil service expert at New York University. “It’s very slow at hiring, negligent in disciplining, permissive in promoting.”

“There’s a private awareness among Democrats and Republicans alike that we need to do something about this,” he said.

edited 23rd Nov '16 10:39:37 AM by Elle

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#158075: Nov 23rd 2016 at 10:31:43 AM

[up]Can't read it thanks to paywall. Could you post an excerpt?


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