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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#157926: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:40:23 PM

Putin has a paramour I think. Man, if Putin ended up being "cucked" by Trump...

Nah it's the Republican leaders who have wives that have to watch out for Trump.

But then I wouldn't doubt seeing them give their wives to him so he'd pass their pet agendas.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#157927: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:41:37 PM

Sanders seems a bit clueless when it comes to actual people. He actually seemed surprised at the DNC convention when a bunch of his supporters booed him after he announced that he would endorse HRC.

edited 22nd Nov '16 6:42:01 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#157928: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:42:48 PM

[up] He's certainly out of touch with older voters outside of the white working class, but that doesn't mean he didn't have an important message.

edited 22nd Nov '16 6:43:08 PM by CaptainCapsase

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#157929: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:46:13 PM

I think a large part of Sanders' appeal to the younger voters was his promise of free college. And the whole "anti-establishment" thing.

edited 22nd Nov '16 6:46:52 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#157930: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:46:48 PM

A little bit of internal discussion and debate might do the Dems some good, so long as they unify and get ready to fight in 2018 and 2020.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#157931: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:48:59 PM

I guess it depends on whether the Democratic Party wants to go further left and embrace economic populism (a risky path) or refine their centrist position (worked in the past but hasn't had a good track record recently). America overall is still a pretty conservative country after all.

Still, as long as they go back to something like Dean's Fifty State Strategy, they should be able to do better in the upcoming elections.

edited 22nd Nov '16 6:51:14 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#157932: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:52:00 PM

@CaptainCapsase AFAIK, the Labour party civil war has been going on ever since Corbyn was elected. The Blairites just used Brexit as an excuse to try to get rid of him.

edited 22nd Nov '16 6:52:13 PM by henry42

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#157933: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:54:08 PM

I believe that the smart move would be only minor changes to the status quo. Trump's base in likely to be less enthusiastic about him two years from now, and given how close the election was, that should be all they need. As far as message goes, anyway. There's a certain amount of 'tactical' stuff they'll have think through carefully, like how to handle the terrible 2018 senate map and what exactly the plan for getting Congress back should be.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#157934: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:57:32 PM

Clinton is being urged to request a recount of the vote totals in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Supposedly the White House is resistant to the idea because they want to ensure a smooth transition of power, and the deadline for such an action is approaching within just a few days.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#157935: Nov 22nd 2016 at 6:57:50 PM

My greatest concern is that the Democratic Party learns the wrong lessons from all of this. Like, say, forsaking minorities to court white people.

[up] I think HRC should request that recount, if only to placate the public urging her to do so. Though I don't blame her for not wanting to seem like Al Gore 2.0 (never mind that the whole mess with Bush-Gore was pretty complicated and Gore was mostly blameless).

edited 22nd Nov '16 6:59:52 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#157936: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:00:34 PM

I doubt they'll go that far, especially if Trump pisses off minorities enough that they smarten up and bother to turn out. They're still an essential bloc.

They might try and revert to a more quiet type of support (like Obama took with the LGBT community, he didn't campaign heavily on their issues but he did bring in positive policies and such).

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#157937: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:00:42 PM

If the Dems don't get their centerist-populist divide at least somewhat patched soon, they're going to be in trouble. I expected this to start happening a few election cycles from now but Clinton's loss accelerated it.

I suspect there's going to have to be some aquisence on both sides or they risk the populist wing spawning their own Tea Party style uprising. (Some of that is my own biases; I don't want to see them swing too far left economically.)

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#157938: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:00:43 PM

Well IIRC, Ellison basically wants to follow a more "on the ground" system with directly engaging in voters/constituents on the local level (which Schumer does which is likely why he was backed by him.)

Also, based on some preliminary observation, Warren and Sanders unfortunately might have a good point on backing down on 'identity politics':

The sliver of White votes that can swing elections in the US (besides voter suppression), apparently spontaneously generate MAGA/GOP caps when they feel minorities are given too many balances. Either because racism or they view the system as Race Blind and it's unfairly overbalancing to minorities.

So.

[Twirls finger in the air]

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#157939: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:01:44 PM

[up][up][up], [up] I guess the trick is saying "We care about minorities" without accidentally implying at the same time "We care more about minorities than about you".

As for the Rust Belt, the Dems really need to figure out a way to convince them to accept the reality of their industries' fading relevance and grim future.

edited 22nd Nov '16 7:04:55 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#157940: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:04:23 PM

Bingo, but you have to hope that minorities accept (and of course they'd have every right not to accept this message) a party that says "Yes we support you, but we have to keep quiet about it so we can get in and actually do it."

The Dems might need an injection of cold pragmatism. Winning really is all that matters, when you are up against the greatest geopolitical threat to mankind since the Axis. Ideals and platitudes are only valuable when they advance the cause.

edited 22nd Nov '16 7:04:58 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#157941: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:07:23 PM

I want to Hillary to push for those recounts, because even if the recount doesn't happen, or it does and doesn't change the result, it creates a wonderful new twist to the narrative- weakening Trump's legitimacy and claim to any kind of 'electoral mandate' even further, making it politically easier to oppose him.

On the other hand, 'voting machines are hackable' isn't a narrative I want to see become stronger. But on the third hand, that might be a price worth paying for a chance to not have President Trump.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#157942: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:07:28 PM

[up][up] The Dems should be loud and proud about their support. Ideally, they should also be just as loud when it comes to presenting Rust Belt workers a future beyond coal and steel.

[up] Hey, if that incumbent asshole governor from NC is doing it...

edited 22nd Nov '16 7:08:56 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#157943: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:09:14 PM

Then enjoy waiting 10 to 20 years to take back the Presidency if at all.

As it stands, there's enough White people who will vote Democrat.

But only if it doesn't sound like the Democrats are giving 'perks' to minorities because The System Isn't Broken in their minds.

edited 22nd Nov '16 7:10:58 PM by PotatoesRock

henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#157944: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:12:55 PM

Winning really is all that matters...
IMO, the Democrats have already been thinking like this for a long time. I think that one of things that's been weakening them lately is that they've proven themselves to be too pragmatic to actually advance their agenda, and many voters have lost faith in them as a result.

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
Ikiniks nor there from neither here Since: Jan, 2012
nor there
#157945: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:14:14 PM

Would a recount in those states have any possibility of yielding significantly different results?

but maybe somewhere
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#157946: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:16:07 PM

[up][up]Perhaps, but they might be too pragmatic in the wrong direction.

Why oh why didn't they listen to Bill...sad

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#157947: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:17:11 PM

Maybe Michigan but according to Nate Silver and Nate Cohn, it's basically a nothing burger that wouldn't actually achieve different results or much of a different tally. I forget the specifics why from what I was reading.

Why oh why didn't they listen to Bill...sad
"The Demographics will carry us. o3o"

edited 22nd Nov '16 7:17:49 PM by PotatoesRock

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#157948: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:17:18 PM

[up][up][up] In the unlikely (try practically impossible) event that all three went to HRC instead, she wins the election.

And even if that happened, would people accept it?

She'd still lose if only Michigan flipped.

Still, if it turns out one of the those states went to her after all, it would further weaken Trump's mandate. Which is still a win in my book.

edited 22nd Nov '16 7:19:04 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#157949: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:18:26 PM

[up][up][up][up]Yes. Losing those three states is why Hillary lost, and all three are within one percentage point of flipping. Michigan in particular is so close it hasn't been officially called yet.

edited 22nd Nov '16 7:18:56 PM by Gilphon

henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#157950: Nov 22nd 2016 at 7:19:58 PM

@Rationalinsanity "Bill" as in Bill Clinton? Because I think he bears a lot of the guilt when it comes to the Democrats' obsession with Pragmatism™ and Bipartisan Compromise™.

edited 22nd Nov '16 7:20:49 PM by henry42

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!

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