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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Jetyl The Dev Cat from my apartment Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The Dev Cat
#157401: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:30:29 AM

I would like to mention everyone thought the same likelihood of trump winning the election, and that did happen (as BS as it was).

all I'm saying is the EC voting someone else is a legit option on the table. not a very likely one, but it is there. I wouldn't put your hopes on it, but I wouldn't dismiss it til the votes are actually cast.

I'm afraid I can't explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#157402: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:30:30 AM

Harsher in hindsight

Inter arma enim silent leges
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#157403: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:39:22 AM

Any fantasies about magical Electoral College fairies taking the election away from Trump are just that, fantasies. We need to put on our grown-up pants and start working for a Democratic Senate (and possibly House although I'm not holding my breath) majority in 2018.

edited 21st Nov '16 9:40:44 AM by tricksterson

Trump delenda est
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#157404: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:42:59 AM

In other US news several sites are reporting another flare-up at Standing Rock, with police dispatching armored riot squads with the usual assortment of water cannons, rubber bullets, and tear gas against protestors overnight.

Nearly 200 reported injured.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#157405: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:44:02 AM

Well it would send a clear message that America does not trust or respect president toupee and that would be a huge ding to his presidency right out of the gate.

It would be the first piece of actually good news that has happened in a month and a Hope Spot before things literally go to hell and the bodies start adding up because there is no stopping the country from going to hell.

[up][up] There is literally no way there will ever be a democratic House or Senate again in our life times, the Democratic Party in America is basically dead and is just going to be the ineffective opposition party from here on out like Russia's ineffective opposition.

Literally progressivism is dead and never going to rise again. The republicans are making damn sure of that.

edited 21st Nov '16 9:54:55 AM by Memers

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#157406: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:44:27 AM

[up][up][up]A Democratic Senate, even, doesn't seem likely. We have to defend something like twenty sitting senators, a number of whom are in states that can best be described as "blood red with a hint of purple," and the House is too gerrymandered to ever go Democrat again. Plus our back bench is atrociously shallow — the Democrats, and progressivism in America, are spent forces and won't rise again in my lifetime.

The more I think about the current predicament, the more dismayed I become at how many opportunities were missed and will never be reclaimed again.

edited 21st Nov '16 9:47:45 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#157407: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:46:59 AM

So you should migrate to France, get naturalized French and help defend our democracy?smile

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#157408: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:54:08 AM

Crimson, unless you're going to die relatively soon, there's no reason to really suspect that something will never happen within your lifetime. Going on absolutes in this manner is the perfect way to excuse not even bothering to try.

Same thing to whoever said we'd never see a democratic congress again, several pages back . It is far too easy to get mired in pessimism, even in the best of times, and this seems to be what people in the thread are determined to do.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#157409: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:58:43 AM

It's not pessimism, it's reality. The Democrats have no one in mind for the Election of 2020, and they'll be lucky if they have 40 senators after 2018. The House is gerrymandered to hell, and will remain so while governors and state legislatures are overwhelmingly Republican. What, in this scenario, would translate to a Democratic resurgence? The party has been defeated to the point of irrelevance. Every Democrat in government could resign today and it wouldn't make a goddamn difference than if they were warming the seats.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#157410: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:59:32 AM

With the way things have been gerrymandered and the 1/3rd of the senete up for reelection, there is absolutely no chance of dems getting it in 2 years and 2020 is extremely unlikely too because the census under republican control will just give them an even bigger chance to gerrymander things. Not to mention no one with any clout is set to run for president.

There is no way the dems will ever get any kind of power again without a massive shift in public opinion and movement far larger than even Civil Rights Movement. That is never going to happen.

edited 21st Nov '16 10:01:15 AM by Memers

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#157411: Nov 21st 2016 at 9:59:55 AM

Oh, come on, there's got to be some way for the Democratic party to recover: demographic changes?, general outrage at the GOP going way too insane? succesfully suing whomever's in charge of districting at the S Cot US to get fair districts?, Biden (or Warren, or Sanders or anyone else) running and winning in 2020? armed revolution?

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#157412: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:01:55 AM

I don't want to give in to the wave of pessimism rising up here, but at the same time... we really are conditioned to think that things will work out in the end, aren't we? No matter how bad things get, there will be a way to get through it all and end up back on the right track.

I'm not sure I believe that anymore.

It's been fun.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#157413: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:01:59 AM

[up][up] ...Not that last one.

[up] Oh geez, do I have to inject some optimism in this thread? I'm really bad at that. tongue

Things don't always work out true. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to ensure they do, right? If anything, that's even more incentive!

edited 21st Nov '16 10:03:43 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#157414: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:02:43 AM

This what the political revolution Sanders was calling for was supposed to be about. Perhaps it still can be, if someone steps forward with both the pragmatism necessary to accomplish something in the political arena and the idealistic vision necessary to bring together a mass movement. Oh, and also the courage and strength of character necessary to resist the peer pressure from the Beltway Bubble which will undoubtedly be all sorts of toxic and even more elitist and oligarchic than it already is by the time Trump is done.

edited 21st Nov '16 10:09:14 AM by CaptainCapsase

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#157415: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:03:44 AM

[up][up][up][up]The republicans are making huge efforts to suppress demographic changes, the racists in the White House are going to make damn sure that it's set in stone too. Armed revolution would only be possible with the military doing it.

The Supreme Court is screwed for the next 50 years too and very unlikely to have a dem in the White House to even help it.

The counrty is fucked to the point it is unfixable. And there is literally no upside to counter balance anything!

edited 21st Nov '16 10:22:49 AM by Memers

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#157416: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:07:29 AM

"Oh, come on, there's got to be some way for the Democratic party to recover: demographic changes?, general outrage at the GOP going way too insane? succesfully suing whomever's in charge of districting at the S Cot US to get fair districts?, Biden (or Warren, or Sanders or anyone else) running and winning in 2020? armed revolution?"

I'll address each point:

1.) Demographics will take years to come into effect. By the time all those old Baby Boomer and forty year old fucks who brought Trump to glory are alldead, I'll probably be in my forties at the youngest (I'm 26 as of writing).

2.) General outrage at the GOP? It took two useless wars to generate that, and after two years, the public was happy to have them back. America doesn't tire of the GOP because America is just as rotten as the GOP.

3.) The SCOTUS will likely have a conservative supermajority, and will have a vested interest in never getting rid of the gerrymandered district map.

4.) Elizabeth Warren is a possibility, but only if Charlie Baker loses in 2018, otherwise, she gets replaced by a Republican. Joe Biden is also a possibility, but will he want to run?

5.) Armed revolution? Not a chance. It would get put down immediately, and people of color would get rounded up.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#157417: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:15:34 AM

I wish I could give some pithy statement about how all things pass, and we just need to weather the storm and try our best while not giving up. But I'm speaking from a position of relative privilege and safety. I imagine things look a lot more dire for people who are in the GOP's cross-hairs right now (not literally I hope). I'm well aware that it's only a matter of time before I end up in those cross-hairs too since I'm not white or Christian.

edited 21st Nov '16 10:16:16 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jetyl The Dev Cat from my apartment Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The Dev Cat
#157418: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:22:06 AM

jeez you guys are being needlessly pessimistic. almost nihilistic even. there is always the possibility for things to get better.

the republicans may be in power, but they are the minority voice in America. the party itself is still so fractured as to basically be on the verge of collapse. and consolidating behind Trump may solidify them, but it'd shrink them in the process.

Progressivism and globalism are the way society is going. if the GOP doesn't wanna follow, they may tank the Government with them, but it won't stop anything.

I'm afraid I can't explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see?
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#157419: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:22:47 AM

Well, make no mistake, I'm a person of color, but I'm otherwise the very stereotype of the New England intelligentsia that Trump and his ilk hate so much, so I'm definitely in a position of privilege. So I'm likely never going to be targeted unless the rubes literally advance to my front door. Still, the prognosis for liberalism in general is so bleak that I can't help but be dismayed.

[up]The "minority voice" in aggregate, yes, but one GOP vote has a much higher impact factor than one Democratic vote, simply because we're an urban party and the U.S. electoral system was designed by old, white, rural, Southern, plantation-running, slave-owning motherfuckers.

edited 21st Nov '16 10:25:08 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#157420: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:22:56 AM

You can say it's reality all you want, but getting mired in pessimism is, again, the perfect way to justify refusing to try.

And as for not having someone for 2020? Well, that's four years away, a lot is going to happen within that time. This sounds more like asking for immediate answers than making a workable plan. There's nothing good that ever happened automatically, and I'm kind of getting tired of the constant "it's never going to work" that has been occurring in this thread since loooong before this particular election.

Also, again, armed revolution is unlikely to happen. If it even gets to that case, as I have said before, a whole lot of other stuff has gone wrong, on a structural level.

edited 21st Nov '16 10:24:34 AM by AceofSpades

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#157421: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:23:34 AM

Demographics will take years to come into effect. By the time all those old Baby Boomer and forty year old fucks who brought Trump to glory are alldead, I'll probably be in my forties at the youngest (I'm 26 as of writing).
Demographics are already in the Dems' favor. The only reason there's not a Democratic Executive and Judiciary dominance right now is because of piss low turnout (which I again partly blame Sanders for), and partly Hillary being too far left (I've said it before and I'll say it again: 72% of respondents in ABC's exit poll said they wanted policies as conservative as Obama's or more so, and moderate Democrats were elected in states where Clinton lost). There's an obvious solution to this problem. Defeatist talk like this is exactly why Trump won.

Mark my words, the Democrats will elect a moderate who will proceed to bulldoze Trump in 2016, after their base has been energized into action and Trump's base has been deflated by the lack of a measured improvements in their lives.

General outrage at the GOP? It took two useless wars to generate that, and after two years, the public was happy to have them back.
Except the current GOP candidate got elected on a platform of isolationism and denigrating the past GOP policies, while specifically being called out by past GOP presidents. And despite that, he still got fewer votes than Mc Cain or Romney even though the country gained an extra thirty million people since then. Plus, you know, their candidate still lost the popular vote by 2 million votes. Meanwhile moderate Democrats gained ground or got reelected this cycle in hard Republican states such as Montana and West Virginia. You're being a doomsayer.

Elizabeth Warren is a possibility, but only if Charlie Baker loses in 2018, otherwise, she gets replaced by a Republican
A Massachusetts Republican replacing Bernie Lite? Awesome.

edited 21st Nov '16 10:26:10 AM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#157422: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:25:53 AM

Edit: Nevermind, I misread that post for some reason.

Also your desire to go right is poorly explained and often in concert with horrible civil rights violation.

edited 21st Nov '16 10:28:02 AM by AceofSpades

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#157423: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:26:04 AM

Right now it doesn't look like we have a clear replacement for Trump in line, but stop and ask yourself how much you knew about Obama four years before he first ran for president. We'll be able to dig up a viable presidential candidate, that's not really the question. The question is whether or not the Democrats can successfully re-tool themselves as a party to be more competitive at the local level while not betraying their core values.

2018 and 2020 are going to be uphill fights, and we shouldn't be denying that, because complacency is part of what got us here. But the more regressive the GOP gets, the more businesses are going to get leery of bad economic decisions, and the more average people are going to get leery of backwards social agendas. With that in mind, I think there's only so far we will tolerate backsliding as a country before we just straight up say no more.

At the same time, let's not just wait for the people who vote the way we don't like to die, either. Because that simply refuses to address the weaknesses in your political appeal, and because those people have children who they taught to think the way they do. Progressiveness isn't inherent to the passage of time, it's a fight for every baby step.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#157424: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:27:08 AM

Such an appointee will need to run in a special election afterwards, though. And we are assuming, of course, that Warren will win the primary.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#157425: Nov 21st 2016 at 10:27:47 AM

Elisabeth Warren is considered to be just about as socialist as Sanders
Nah, last I checked she didn't hold up Venezuela as a role model for the USA. She's not as bad as Sanders.

Also your desire to go right is poorly explained
I've explained it very thoroughly with several pages of data to get across my logic.

Also your desire to go right is poorly explained and often in concert with horrible civil rights violation.
Cite me the horrible civil rights violations from the likes of, say, Steve Bullock. Or Biden for that matter.

edited 21st Nov '16 10:30:08 AM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."

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