Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
The Gracchi's claim to fame was that they were populists more in the vein of Bernie Sanders, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. One of my classes did a unit on them in high school where Cicero blasted them for being from the inferior plebeian class, though they had ties to a powerful political family. Also I just found out right now that the Gracchi were the grandchildren of Scipio Africanus. Cool I guess.
I'd say Trump is more like Sulla or Crassus like you suggested. Though those two actually were semi-competent leaders. So maybe he's more like Tarquin the Proud.
edited 18th Nov '16 5:59:48 PM by AlleyOop
Reading those articles has sort of reinforced something I previously believed:
Yes, there was the racism. The xenophobia. The sexism.
But more than that?
It was the ignorance that did the US in.
Those people have very little in the ways of education, and I hate to sound snobby since that attitude enabled this, but you can see it from the way those articles delineate what they said. They have no sense of perspective about the world at large, about all the people that are getting hurt because of this, about how they've been enablers for his shitty behavior, how they might have helped install a kleptocracy in the country, how his and the GOP's policies are going to fuck the world up because of climate change, and perhaps most notably, they don't seem to know anything about the feasibility of their jobs coming back.
They don't get any of it.
Most of them probably only know their immediate lives and whatever's on TV. For one thing, they don't seem to have any idea what Breitbart is, it's not even on their radar. They just want some sort of time machine for things to go back to the way they were in the days of their grandparents. It makes sense that in that sort of environment, Trump's rhetoric could take root.
Contrast that with some of us here, who I assume have lived in much different conditions and are much younger. I know if Tobias or Garcon see this they'll probably say those people have no excuse, but my point is that I think there WAS a bubble here and it's not even entirely the left's fault, at least not the people who aren't politicians. Those communities are more or less islands of their own, I don't think those kinds of people are the type to spend much time on the internet as it is.
The Republicans growing a spine and showing Trump there are lines he can't cross is about our only hope at this point.
Unfortunately I'm not confident in that happening.
edited 18th Nov '16 6:17:12 PM by Draghinazzo
Yeah, I have relatives who live in the middle of the Prairies, in both North Dakota and Alberta. They're the ones who go to the "city" maybe once every few months, and the "city", in this case, is a place like Red Deer, which is significantly smaller than a small town in Ontario. These people live in a little tiny world, in little tiny towns where their biggest contact with specific people further away is if they happen to have relatives outside their bubble. It is honestly kind of bizarre how little they know, because the tiny little rural schools tend to suck, and there's basically no pressure to learn anything on your own.
My grandmother's go-to joke about Toronto is basically "Hey, there are a lot of Chinese people there, aren't there?" and then she would laugh like crazy, because she lives in a town where there is exactly one person of colour, and he's aboriginal.
edited 18th Nov '16 6:29:17 PM by Zendervai
Across societies, education is the strongest weapon against despotism. There's a reason why tyrannical governments tend to go after the intellectuals first. They're the ones they fear the most. Often it's the idealists, the very people who got them in that they betray. Communist China did it. The Khmer Rouge did it. Nazi Germany did it. Ignorance is what allows them to maintain their hold on power. And they usually maintain it by control of the education system and indoctrination of the younger generations.
These people more than likely don't even have Internet, and are probably lucky to even have a radio or OTA television. How would someone who lives like that even hear of Bannon or Breitbart when all they have is conservative talk radio and a few OTA television stations? There is a concept known as the Digital Divide
where basically people don't have access to the Internet and are thus locked out of opportunity because of it. The reason why some people don't in the US is mainly due to income and education. The poor and less educated are less likely to have Internet access than those with higher income and more education. These people who live in dying towns aren't even in the position to become more educated as they don't have the resources to get educated, and higher incomes only come with education. Even if they get a college education, they then have student loan debt to contend with.
edited 18th Nov '16 7:57:15 PM by GameGuruGG
Wizard Needs Food BadlyEven if they have really good internet, Confirmation Bias is a hell of a thing.
Do not obey in advance.Yeah, it's like it said: Trump's main voting force came from the undereducated miners and manufacturers of the Rust Belt that only supported Trump because "he tells it like it is!" and "he's famous and successful so he'll be a great president!" and didn't care about him mocking a disabled person or the numerous sexual assault and fraud allegations...
I think that maybe it shows that the Clinton campaign took the wrong image against Trump. His supporters didn't like Trump because of his statements, but in spite of them. They may have not liked what he said about women and minorities, but at least he was willing to provide "real solutions" (heavy air quotes here) to the issues facing the rural communities rather than just the "fluff and nonsense" offered by the liberals (heavier airquotes here). In any case, the election's over. Praise be, it's over.
The question remains to be seen whether Trump's alt-right base will bulge before the Republican Establishment does. Trump has his appointees, and Trump has his promises of removing the lobbyists from his cabinet, but it's all just talk at this point. Until he actually takes office and starts running the country (god help us), we won't really see whether the alt-right will dominate the establishment or if the establishment will be complicit in the alt-right's increasingly worrying control over American politics. And be sure, while "we" may be fucked in both instances, different groups get screwed over in different outcomes.
An alt-right win would be terrible for minorities but merely bad for LGBT groups and the "liberal establishment", and just shitty for women.
An establishment win is terrible for female rights (specifically reproductive rights) and LGBT groups, bad for education and minorities, and shitty for the "liberal establishment".
I highly doubt peace in Washington. These groups may agree that the Democrats need to GTFO, but they have completely different aims that will definitely be expressed when all these groups suddenly find themselves disproportionately represented in all levels and all types of government.
edited 18th Nov '16 7:30:29 PM by InAnOdderWay
It's true. It's actually quite easy to create an echo chamber on the internet if you like, and you may even do it without realizing that you are.
But even with that, you still have a gateway to limitless knowledge and the rest of the world. You have a much higher chance of running into someone whose beliefs you disagree with, or to run into knowledge that might change your beliefs.
I mean, I think most of us here didn't magically pop into the world with our current understanding of politics, sociology, privilege theory, racial issues, economics, etc. I'm still learning a lot myself, as this election has motivated me to try and find out more and more about the political landscape of the world today, because I fear soon that information might not be easily available.
I know for a fact that if it wasn't for the internet, I would be a vastly different person than I am today.
It's hard enough for people's beliefs to change when they have access to information. But it's NEVER gonna happen if they don't have access to it, period.
I don't think the alt-right is actually that numerous. Their influence and prominence is growing, yes, but many of them are also as I understand it quite young, and they don't have much political influence to exert, if any. Sure, Bannon is in the Cabinet (unless he gets outed, but I doubt that), but that's about it.
edited 18th Nov '16 7:36:16 PM by Draghinazzo
Hell, without the Internet, there'd be no TV Tropes for knowledgeable folks like us from around the world to converge and seek solace in one another.
Like seriously, this website has been critical in areas from day-to-day discussions, class debates, and research papers.
__
Funny how the GOP still has ironic tastes in the arts.
I feel like I accidentally implied that people should not have good internet, but I think that it would help everyone to have as much access to information as possible. At least in the US, we have fairly widespread access to the Internet. Unlike, for example, how the Chinese government tries to oppress the internet as much as they can... for however long that will work.
edited 18th Nov '16 8:34:27 PM by BearyScary
Do not obey in advance.Even China's grip on the internet isn't absolute. People can bypass it with VPN's and Opera Turbo, and the party is content to let some people do that, because they feel like if they HAVE TO, they can exert control, but it's a small price to pay. It doesn't really matter that much if a small group of "intellectual elites" exist (mostly tech-savvy young people); the mainstream media is in their control and influences public opinion in their favor, and most people are never gonna bother or have the means to find out about how to bypass the censorship. By allowing that small group of people to be placated, they give them an outlet to safely "rebel" without necessarily actually rebelling. They'll care if those people use those means to actually incite criticism and rebellion against the government, but mostly just if they do that on local websites.
It's the same thing in Russia, and might be the same thing in the US down the line, what with SOPA looming and the threat of a Trump kleptocracy.
edited 18th Nov '16 8:43:02 PM by Draghinazzo
I shudder to think what the Trump administration would do to the porn industry.
Maybe that's what it'd take for working class whites to realize their situation? Single and sexually frustrated men coming home to find out that their avenue for sewing their wild oats is being endangered by the very presidency they so zealously rallied behind.
The alt-righters would be without a way to satisfy their Pony and Interracial fetishes.
edited 18th Nov '16 8:45:19 PM by FluffyMcChicken
@Beary: that was mostly aimed at Odder Way and their incredibly pessimistic comment about the internet.
Also I don't think the porn industry is going anywhere. If humans are an ingenious lot, the porn industry is probably filled with the most ingenious. And also opportunistic.
edited 18th Nov '16 8:56:01 PM by AceofSpades
So I found an old article talking about the strongman trend going on worldwide right now
, and the main reason I'm citing it is because it brings up an interesting fact.
Mr Abe, the Japanese prime minister, is also planning a personal approach to the Russian leader. He has invited him to a summit in Japan next month in the probably vain hope that the Russian leader will agree to hand back some islands that Russia has occupied since 1945. The two men are expected to continue their discussions in a traditional hot spring in Mr Abe’s home town. As one of the Japanese leader’s aides puts it: “It will be two naked middle-aged guys, in a hot spring, trying to sort things out.”
This kind of highly personalised diplomacy is doubtless exciting. But it is also intrinsically unstable. Bargains struck between strongman leaders have a tendency to fly apart. President Erdogan has shown a tendency to form close bonds with other leaders that deteriorate into bitter antagonism when he feels slighted. The colossal ego of Mr Trump might also lead to a highly unstable style of personalised diplomacy.
So basically, it was very obvious that Trump was in a position to royally fuck things up in terms of diplomacy with many countries. But the thing is, because there are so many strongmen worldwide atm, it's probably going to create a very unstable political climate, because of all these huge egos colliding.
Speaking of which, another article says Putin just tried out a new nuclear weapon that could reach America in 12 minutes.
And this is the guy Trump wants to get buddy buddy with...
If the Republicans end up growing a spine it'll probably be over the fact that they don't want Russia to get any more powerful. If nothing else Trump could represent an enormous blow to America's geopolitical interests by placating Putin.

I was somehow under the impression they were Patricians...
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.