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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#156526: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:32:13 AM

[up][up] We could try making the case that this is far from a normal election. Nothing about any of this has been normal, nor should it be normalized.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#156527: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:32:24 AM

[up][up] I'm trying to identify what it was that caused the democrats to lose the election, and why the GOP has near total control of the American government at every level. You appear to be trying to reconcile your worldview with observational reality in a way that doesn't require any adjustments to that worldview.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:33:26 AM by CaptainCapsase

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#156528: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:33:25 AM

The electoral college lost us the election. Clinton's lead over Trump is unprecedented.

Oh really when?
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#156529: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:34:05 AM

Just remembered what I was trying to comment on when time broke.

The thing is that poor whites DO exist and DO need help. Neither party is making a point of that

This isn't true. Obama tried to pas a 50 billion dollar infrastructure bill that would have helped poor whites. The Republicans have been blocking it since 2011.

Onto the rest that's been said...

For a while you seemed to be one of the former until someone else pointed out the importance of converting them and things we need to do to win them over.

You want my stance here? On the personal level—the personal level—these people are irredeemable scum. They're prepared to support bigotry of all types if it will potentially get them something they want. That's utterly repulsive, and I do not want anybody like that in my personal life. Anyone who fills my Facebook feed with pro-Trump, alt-right BS gets blocked because I have better things to do with my life.

That being said, on the political front we have to deal with these people one way or another, be it by finding a way to work with them, or by finding a way to make them irrelevant. Sometimes the only way to do right is to work with people you otherwise find repugnant. Case in point—ED Morel, one of my personal heroes, managed to get the goddamn Klan in back of his anti-colonial campaign against the Congo. I am fully in favour of getting these people to vote right so that we don't have eight years of Trump. It's more or less a necessity.

However that does not mean we should forget for one second what they are and the kinds of policies they endorsed. In fact we must not forget it, both because prejudice is repulsive in and of itself and because, at the end of the day, if we forget these people are bigots than our attempts at reaching out to them will fail. You have to understand who you are dealing with.

On a side note you seem to take a lot of people's posts really personally and are constantly speaking with a snide and aggressive tone, not just on this thread. and not just about social justice topics

Then report me. Seriously. I've been on this site a long, long time at this point, and while I've had a few dust-ups with people that have gotten out of hand and one or two posts that crossed a line, I've never been suspended, or told by moderation that there's an overarching issue. If a specific thing I've said to you bothers you I'm happy to address that particular thing, but a critique of my general attitude isn't going to get us anywhere—anymore than my critiquing yours would, I expect.

If I say something to you that offends you I'll cheerfully apologize, but I'm not getting into a discussion about things beyond that—not least because that would violate forum policy.

Adding to that, there's an alarmingly prevalent attitude on the left that holds any form of bigotry to be a Moral Event Horizon, which, beyond not being particularly constructive, veers into a dangerous sort of moral absolutism.

I second Hodor's comment here. You're a smart guy Caspase, and despite what you may think, I do respect your opinion, but there are times you seem more interested in getting upset with us for recognizing bigotry than you do in actually fighting bigotry.

How do you figure he'd be a Trump supporter?

Punisher believes in extrajudicial killings of people for crimes that he alone judges to be irredeemable. Ask yourself which party that sounds more like.

"If Donald Trump takes people's anger and turns it against Muslims, Hispanics, African Americans and women, we will be his worst nightmare."

Guess who said that? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't Clinton.

Guess what? For the most part our issue isn't with Sanders himself—though I do have serious reservations about his "white working class" obsession.

His more rabid supporters though? The ones who fill my Facebook feed with Jill Stein support and gloating about how Trump beat the "warmongering capitalist tyrant"? Those people I have an issue with.

Okay, that's actually demonstratably untrue. He was in Chicago getting his ass arrested fighting for civil rights before it was the cool thing for white folks to do during his college years. Don't tell me that man doesn't care about racism.

Okay, this is an argument I saw a million times during the election. I was sick of it then, I'm sick of it now. If you're going to defend Sanders' record on race relations that's great, go for it, but do it by talking about things he's done since getting into office, not something he did back when he was in university.

This would be like me defending my leftist credentials on the basis that I worked for an NDP campaign in high school, rather than looking at anything I've done since.

There was a recent hubbub over a woman getting fired for making a social media post about Obama's wife being 'an ape in heels.' Afterwards, she claimed that it wasn't meant to be racist.

Now, that sounds ridiculous on its face, but those are the kind of mental gymnastics people do when their self-identity is at stake. If we talk about people as being inherently and irredeemably evil bigots, then it's no surprise that almost no one is willing to view themselves as inherently evil. IMO, people aren't bigots, people behave in a bigoted fashion and say bigoted things sometimes.

A bigot is by definition a person who says or does bigoted things. We can talk about degrees of bigotry, since there's a difference between making social media posts like that and running for office as a Neo-Nazi but these people are bigots.

Because I've grown as a person in some ways over the course of this election cycle. I don't usually feel the need to announce that I've changed my opinions on something, I just silently do it and act accordingly.

It might help to do it in cases like this. Helps avoid the impression of hypocrisy, double standards, et al.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#156530: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:34:40 AM

@M84: I agree wholeheartedly. Nothing about this is normal. That's one of the Rules of Surviving an Autocracy, which I think we will unfortunately be getting a lot of mileage out of in the times to come - do not be fooled by signs of normalcy. None of this is normal.

If we can get 37 electors to realize that and do the right thing, then we just might stave off disaster. But as I said earlier - that would require me to have some faith in humanity remaining, and any of that I had left evaporated on the 8th.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:35:14 AM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#156531: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:34:55 AM

Seriously. It's not like people didn't vote for Clinton, the popular vote shows us that plenty of them did.

Don't go surrendering your values and whoring away your power just because you encountered an obstacle.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#156532: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:34:57 AM

So have we talked about Jeff Sessions? The guy from my home state who was too racist to be hired under Reagan's administration is going to be Trump's new AG, as well as following after the first two African American AGs in Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch. I am.....disgusted.

In good news though, Anti muslim legislation that would have targeted Muslim women in Georgia got withdrawn.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:39:18 AM by higherbrainpattern

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#156533: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:35:12 AM

@Capsase- Well I don't think it explains everything, but gerrymandering and voter suppression explain a lot.

I never hear Sanders supporters talk about voter suppression, despite being so concerned about fair elections during the primaries. But I guess since the white working class aren't the victims of voter suppression, it doesn't register.

@Ambar- [awesome]

edited 18th Nov '16 10:36:44 AM by Hodor2

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#156534: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:36:34 AM

@Capsase The incompetence of the DNC under DWS (abandoning the fifty state strategy), the resultant loss of state legislatures and Congressional seats to the GOP, the GOP taking advantage of gerrymandering, the loss of the Voting Rights Act granting them the opportunity for more voter suppression, the decades-long efforts of the GOP to demonize HRC finally bearing fruit, those damn emails, the FBI getting involved, Russia getting involved, the media focusing too much on Clinton scandals while not focusing enough on any of Trump's scandals, the Rust Belt working class feeling an existential crisis due to the reality of the coal and steel industries fading away leaving them vulnerable to Trump's snake oil, them likely blaming Bill Clinton signing off on NAFTA for their current woes, HRC's own campaign team overestimating their own chances in the Rust Belt despite Bill's warnings, the so-called Bernie or Bust voters in certain crucial states, social media doing nothing to crack down on the fake news that was overwhelmingly in favor of Trump and against Clinton, general feelings of anti-establishment, the inherent disadvantage of running after a two-term Democratic President, HRC just not being good with sound bites, her team's lack of a strong social media presence...

It's a Long List.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:42:16 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#156535: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:38:14 AM

I would like to note that at this point, Trump should just change his slogan to "I'm Donald Trump and I'm here to tell you the truth."

Bonus points to anyone who doesn't have to click the link to get the reference.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#156536: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:39:37 AM

[up][up][up] I'm fairly certain he did talk about those things, and about numerous other race issues. He clearly didn't succeed at convincing people such are yourself that he cared though, which is presumably why he lost the primaries.

Once again, I'd like to direct attention to This Vox article on the "smug style" in American liberalism. There's a very clear communication and comprehension barrier between democrats and the white working class, in addition to the varying degrees of bigotry present among that sector of the population, and economic hardships that makes the message of the democrats fall flat.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:39:52 AM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#156537: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:42:05 AM

I can possibly believe that Sanders cared given some comments he's made in the last week (although as you noted, I wasn't convinced which is why I didn't vote for him).

Do you care at all though?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#156538: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:42:34 AM

[up] What comments in particular?

As far as I go, I feel like you are falling into the same sort of absolutist mindset that is described in that article, which definitely contributed to disdain for Sanders, which tends to label anyone who doesn't show fealty to the social justice cause often enough and in the right way as a bigot by virtue of being insufficiently loyal.

Yes, I care about race issues, from police brutality to mass incarceration to voter suppression as it relates to minorities. I care more however, about the fundamental underpinnings of democracy unraveling, despite being mixed race myself, because of the sheer potential for harm that opens up, to both minorities and non-minorities.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:46:12 AM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#156539: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:44:33 AM

Well I have seen comments and tweets about opposing Trump's bigotry and defending the rights of non-white Americans. Although he also turns around and talks about wanting to work with Trump and goes on about the vaunted white working class. So I don't know which Sanders to believe.

[up] Okay fine. Do you care about voter suppression of African Americans? Do you think it's bad that African Americans are subject to racial profiling and killed by police at disproportionate rates? Do you support gay marriage? Do you think it is a bad thing to want to have a registry of Muslim Americans? Why is it that's it's a good thing when Bernie Sanders makes comments about those things but I'm a liberal elitist for caring about them?

Edit- didn't see your edit when I added this bullet.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:48:57 AM by Hodor2

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#156540: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:47:49 AM

[up] You do realize pretty much every Democrat politician was saying that for at least a few days after Trump's election? Clinton's concession speech expressed a similar "we have to give him a chance" attitude. Most of them, Sanders included, now indicate they feel he has blown his chance by appointing Bannon.

Edit: As far as your second point goes, yes I think voter suppression of African Americans is bad, yes I think police brutality's disproportionate effect on African Americans is bad, yes i think a registry of Muslim Americans is bad. I do not think any of those things are mutually exclusive with a desire to improve the lives of white working class Americans.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:56:20 AM by CaptainCapsase

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#156541: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:48:28 AM

If the EC were to tie it up could House Republicans put Pence or someone else in charge or do they have to choose between the four main candidates only?

[up][up] They're saying they're going to work with Trump where they find common ground because that's the professional thing to do. Sanders also said that he's only going to help Trump wherever it stands to benefit the white working class, but was also explicit about not backing him up on anything that promotes bigotry. As I said earlier it's probably a political ploy to draw the white working class's attention to him and the Democrats and/or Trump's failure to help them.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:51:19 AM by AlleyOop

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#156542: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:48:29 AM

So does anyone else here also believe that we've given Trump more than enough chances to prove he won't be a complete travesty of a President? And that it's been an Epic Fail so far?

Disgusted, but not surprised
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#156543: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:48:41 AM

Uh, both? The two are not contradictory. They DO need to win the white working class over politically, and any benefits to them should (theoretically) benefit minorities of the same working class as well.

He has also promised to fight against discriminatory policies.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#156544: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:53:06 AM

@Hodor2: I'd like to add that under a Trump administration, the best case scenario is a stagnation of social justice policies in our government, so we're going to be playing defense there. There was at least some possibility that he might be serious about wanting to help white working class Americans, and should the opportunity for that sort of bipartisan cooperation arrive, we should not obstruct such efforts simply for the sake of obstructing the Trump administration, even as we vehemently oppose discriminatory or economically regressive policies that the Trump administration attempts to enact.

[up][up] He's more or less blown his chance barring a sudden change of heart when it comes to actually policymaking.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:55:46 AM by CaptainCapsase

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#156545: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:55:54 AM

[up] Too bad he's not going to help them. Even if he really wanted to help them (he doesn't) 1) what they really want isn't something he can give them without a Time Machine and 2) he's incompetent.

Trump will likely muck around with tariffs and start trade wars like an idiot. Which won't help anyone, least of all those Rust Belt workers.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:58:08 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#156546: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:57:04 AM

[up] It's unlikely he will do much to help rust belt workers, but, for the sake of appearances and because he and his inner circle can personally benefit from such projects (being a real estate mogul), major infrastructure investments may not be off the table, which is something we sorely need.

edited 18th Nov '16 10:58:08 AM by CaptainCapsase

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#156547: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:58:31 AM

Okay the fact that everyone in the political solar system now view working whites as some kind of special snowflake is fucking disgusting to be honest.

The demographic that actively vote against their economic interests. In the debates, Hillary said she wanted to help the workers of the dying coal industry by implementing job training for other fields. Trump said "The jobs are gone and I'm gonna bring them back." Only one of them had any form of a plan and they didn't vote for her.

And again, these are the same people who cry that the black/brown people always want free stuff. Yet they're the ones who enjoyed being catered to by Trump telling them their a special snowflake. So at the expense of themselves and everyone else, the working white class voted for a con man, who knew he was going to be incompetent, who won't do a thing for them. So if by chance, if all the brown people are departed, all black people end up in jail, and all the Muslims are in camps, who will they then blame when they find out that their own situation didn't get better?

Meanwhile, these same people cry about women, minorities, and gays being uppity and demanding. Well they actually bother to open their mouths and not at the expense of someone else I might add.

Finally, Trump is just announcing establishment and or white nationalists to his cabinet. And the "economically anxious" white, working class has been awfully silent on him not appointing anyone who'll help the common man.

edited 18th Nov '16 11:00:38 AM by NoName999

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#156548: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:59:31 AM

Frankly, one of the ideas that scares me the most is the idea of Trump creating a giant economic bubble that bursts soon after he leaves office. So he gives the illusion of improving the economy when in fact he's only digging it deeper - but since we've already learned that voters are mindless sheep not critical thinkers, that won't matter, and it will give him a nearly unassailable position from which to seek re-election. Him or another supervillain.

And if the Democrats ever manage to retake power, then the bubble bursts, and the GOP insist it's all their fault. "Remember how good things were when we were in charge?"

I mean, it doesn't scare me as much as the idea of the GOP abolishing elections, or manipulating the system to guarantee themselves nigh-permanent power...but none of these are mutually exclusive.

edited 18th Nov '16 11:00:23 AM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#156549: Nov 18th 2016 at 11:01:13 AM

[up] If an economic crisis does happen thanks to Trump, it will happen sooner rather than later I think. For one thing, that moron wants to start fucking trade wars with China and such.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#156550: Nov 18th 2016 at 11:01:35 AM

@Capsase- I can kind of agree with that and honestly I don't have any animus against the "white working class".

What I have a problem with though is that the discussion is about the "white working class", not the "working class". And that's not a coincidence I think because what I'm hearing from you and others is not primarily a discussion of how it's bad that Democrats supported policies that hurt or didn't appeal to working class Americans. Instead, it's all about condemning Democratic anti-bigotry.

Like I don't know if it would work (although I hope so) but I'd rather put emphasis on winning back the "working class" (some of whom are white, some aren't) than winning the "white" working class.


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