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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#156051: Nov 17th 2016 at 12:06:23 AM

Also what's the issue with Warren?
As I said earlier, she's dangerously misinformed at best, an outright liar at worst. Her speeches about the 2008 crash reveal her to be basically economically illiterate.

but in case you didn't notice Bernie refused to become the Green Party candidate and campaigned for Clinton.
The damage had long been done by that point. He did far more damage than anything positive for the Democrats.

I get why people who work for banks might not like her, when your livelihood depends on destructive institutions
Banks are not "destructive institutions". Stop demonizing those who work in the banking industry.

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#156052: Nov 17th 2016 at 12:19:29 AM

Right, and I assume Gordon Gekko's a saint in your books?

Unfortunately in a culture that actively encourages anti-intellectualism, some simplification will be needed. I mean, the Rust Belt was sold on the basis of multiple policies that would worsen their lot...

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#156053: Nov 17th 2016 at 12:20:20 AM

Right, and I assume Gordon Gekko's a saint in your books?
What. Where did anyone say that?

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#156054: Nov 17th 2016 at 12:24:09 AM

Well, there is not much love gor banks here. And you have not given arguments as to why Warren's opinions (hers, not a strawmanned version thereof as is so common) are wrong.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#156055: Nov 17th 2016 at 12:40:57 AM

[up]I don't appreciate being strawmanned, in any case.

Anyway, I'm glad you asked, friend. Let's just quote her:

“Seven years ago, Wall Street’s high-risk bets brought our economy to its knees. The Dallas Fed estimates that the total cost of the crash was $14 trillion. Millions of families lost their homes. Millions of people lost their savings. Millions of people lost their jobs. And even today, millions of hard-working, play-by-the-rules people are still struggling to survive."
Literally the very first thing she says is wrong. Sub-prime mortgages were not high risk bets for Wall Street, in fact they arose out of a specific desire for a safe and steady return. The risks of such mortgage products were higher than the risk models the banks and rating agencies and investors themselves used due to faulty modeling.

“Over the past 7 years, we have made some real progress dialing back the risk of a future crisis. But despite that progress, the biggest banks continue to threaten the economy. The biggest banks are collectively much bigger today than they were 7 years ago. They continue to engage in dangerous, high-risk practices. And with each new headline and subsequent legal settlement, it becomes clearer that they keep chasing profits even if it means breaking the law.
The banks are not engaging in "dangerous, high risk practices" right now as Warren claimed. Most economists think they're being too conservative.

“For 50 years, Glass-Steagall played a central role in keeping our country safe. Traditional banking stayed separate from high-risk Wall Street banking. There wasn’t a single major financial crisis, and the financial sector helped contribute to a sustained, broad-based economic growth that helped build America’s middle class…after 12 separate attempts, Congress repealed most of Glass-Steagall in 1999.
This is technically true, but incredibly misleading. By 1983 the Savings and Loans Crisis was inevitable, Glass-Stegal or no. The thousands of small S&L banks had been accumulating bad debt since the 60s and everything finally began to fall apart just three years later. The existence of Glass-Steagall did absolutely nothing to prevent the S&L crisis. It's like claiming the Treaty of Versailles was just amazing peace it kept Europe at peace for 20 years, while conveniently leaving out that the Nazis launched a war three months after the specified timeframe.

Additionally, her entire "too to fail" argument was based on a false premise:

1. We didn't bail out the big banks because they were deposit banks and ordinary Americans would have lost their money. Most of the bailed out institutions weren't deposit banks and the financial crisis and subsequent bailout really had nothing to do with deposit banks. The big banks had to be bailed out because they were part of the shadow banking system (which isn't remotely subject to Glass-Steagall).

2. The idea that just by breaking up you will eliminate or drastically reduce risk is utter nonsense. The savings and loans crisis of the 1980s proves that having thousands of small banks probably actually magnifies the risk of a financial crisis. Thousands of small banks will still run like lemmings off a cliff and cause a huge financial crisis with their aggregate stupidity. Except now it's much harder to regulate and monitor 5,000 regional banks than it is to monitor 5 national banks.

Warren also stated that the minimum wage should be $22 if inequality wasn't rampant.

“If we started in 1960 and we said that as productivity goes up, that is as workers are producing more, then the minimum wage is going to go up the same. And if that were the case then the minimum wage today would be about $22 an hour. So my question is Mr. Dube, with a minimum wage of $7.25 an hour, what happened to the other $14.75? It sure didn’t go to the worker.”
This is probably even more stupid idea than the above; that's higher than the US median wage ($30,240 at a 1,700 hour work year) and almost as high as the average hourly wage! How she couldn't see the obvious hole in logic here is beyond me. She goes on to state that the minimum wage should be at least $10.10. I pointed out the skepticism most economists have with even raising it to $9 here. At even a relatively tiny $10.10 (compared to the $22 it 'should' be) the USA's minimum wage would be just about the highest in OECD- besides Luxembourg which is essentially a city-state. Higher than Australia's.

Finally, her premise that wages haven't kept pace (based on the study she was citing) with productivity is another myth that I truly hate. Rather than posting a bunch of articles and graphs, I'll just link this intuitive and convenient little video.

There's a lot of occasions I can cite where she put ideology above facts, but I think I've made my opinion clear enough. Plus, it's midnight here. 'night.

edited 17th Nov '16 12:49:16 AM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#156056: Nov 17th 2016 at 12:47:34 AM

As I said earlier, she's dangerously misinformed at best, an outright liar at worst. Her speeches about the 2008 crash reveal her to be basically economically illiterate.

You've said it before, you've yet to explain it though, how is she misinformed, what has she said that marks her as economically illiterate?

The damage had long been done by that point. He did far more damage than anything positive for the Democrats.

What damage? Yes he told people that there was a problem and that the system had corruption and insider training issues, he also said that there was a left wing answer to the problem and that the Democratic Party was offering it. In case you didn't notice he wasn't the only person pointing out the current problems, the propel he swung weren't people he turned from loyal democrats into angry Green Party voters, they were people who would have either stayed home, voted Green or voted for Trump, some of them still did those things despite Bernie, but it wasn't in spite of him, not because of him.

Banks are not "destructive institutions".

I've got a breaking global ecneomic system that disagrees with you, plus an increasing level of wealth inequality that makes strong secondary arguments. Sure not all banks are like that, but let's not pretend that the larger financial instuties aren't currently a gigantic contributor to both ecneomic uncertainty and inequality.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#156057: Nov 17th 2016 at 1:07:40 AM

Just gonna say that we desperately need Sanders right now.

Hillary Clinton would've made a great president but Sanders is what's needed to reform and build up popularity for the Democratic Party.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#156058: Nov 17th 2016 at 1:32:17 AM

Maybe we'll get lucky and another Obama like individual will appear. Remember, Obama was a relatively unknown political figure until he ran for President.

edited 17th Nov '16 1:32:35 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#156059: Nov 17th 2016 at 1:34:49 AM

That's my dream. If there was something that could truly renew my hope, it would be another Obama.

Could one of the new Senators be up to the task? Duckworth or Harris or somebody?

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#156060: Nov 17th 2016 at 1:41:26 AM

Maybe we'll get lucky and another Obama like individual will appear. Remember, Obama was a relatively unknown political figure until he ran for President.

Not exactly. Obama made his big debut in 2004 at the DNC convention.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#156062: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:38:03 AM

[up] Too Clever by Half...*sigh*

Disgusted, but not surprised
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#156063: Nov 17th 2016 at 3:43:50 AM

Everything Clinton-related in the DNC needs to be purged.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#156064: Nov 17th 2016 at 4:05:51 AM

Orrin Hatch may have just torpedoed any scheme the GOP had about ending the filibuster.

This is...something passing for good news, right? If he really is able to preserve it, then the Democrats would still have that weapon in their arsenal in case of emergencies.

Unless Trump and his Death Eaters manage to just flat-out bypass the Senate with all of their worst agendas, that is.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#156065: Nov 17th 2016 at 4:45:13 AM

He's pointing out, wisely, that their party's been at a disadvantage more often than not, and that there's no true guarantee that they'll maintain this current advantage. That's the thing with the system we have; that which benefits you today might benefit your opponents tomorrow.

@Thenardier: I"m pretty sure Warren's point about what the minimum wage should have been has to do with the fact that wages have stalled relative to other things in like the past forty years. Saying that it's higher than the current median wage as it exists currently is probably ignoring the context of her argument. The idea that wages in America have have been depressed due to various factors (right to work states, people at the top lobbying against wage rises, etc.) is one that's been floating around for a while.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#156066: Nov 17th 2016 at 4:52:47 AM

I'm glad democratic leadership, unlike many people here to their credit, doesn't seem as eager to throw Sanders under the bus and stick their heads further up their own ass like the GOP did in 2012, completely ignoring what's wrong with the party, blaming their base for their loss, and eventually producing an authoritarian candidate who represents the very worst they have to offer.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#156067: Nov 17th 2016 at 5:24:47 AM

People have been donating to Planned Parenthood in Mike Pence's name.

http://wapo.st/2fQj5SO

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#156068: Nov 17th 2016 at 5:34:50 AM

[up]Do people want him as PP's poster boy? "Use birth control. Otherwise, something like this might be the result."

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
RedRob Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
#156069: Nov 17th 2016 at 5:42:28 AM

I think it's just an act of defiance. They're basically just trolling him.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet Unless I grew it. In that case, throw it in the trash.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#156070: Nov 17th 2016 at 5:52:00 AM

The "thank you for donating" certificates are sent to whoever is listed as the donor. So, Pence's office in Indiana is going to be flooded with those certificates. And he can't do anything about it.

Judging from a couple tweets, Planned Parenthood is perfectly aware of what's happening, but they have a standard procedure that they're following. The increase in donations also mean that Planned Parenthood has a bit more of a buffer against defunding.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#156071: Nov 17th 2016 at 5:54:44 AM

[up]I bet a few members of staff are following procedure to every letter and comma with grins you could put on Jack o' Lanterns plastered across their faces.

edited 17th Nov '16 6:15:13 AM by Euodiachloris

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#156072: Nov 17th 2016 at 6:10:26 AM

Bothering by the Book

EDIT: From the "Letters From the West" section of my local paper, the Idaho Statesman:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/letters-from-the-west/article115283313.html

It describes Twin falls, Idaho's experience with Breitbart, such as their attempt to link a (false) story about refugees sexually assaulting a child with Chobani, a yogurt maker with a factory in Twin Falls, a founder who is a Turkish immigrant of Kurdish descent, and a history of hiring refugees.

edited 17th Nov '16 6:32:36 AM by sgamer82

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#156073: Nov 17th 2016 at 6:31:34 AM

I want Pence's house to be like that scene in the first Harry Potter movie where the letters flood the house, except there's no Harry and all the letters are there just to torture the Dursleys.

"We're home, Chewie."
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#156074: Nov 17th 2016 at 6:40:14 AM

[up]I dunno, man, I don't think I'd wish that many papercuts on anyone.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#156075: Nov 17th 2016 at 6:41:06 AM

Actually, the people who are currently assembled to occupy the White House are perhaps the exact group of people I would pick to inflict that many paper cuts on. Convenient, really.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

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