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Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155451: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:15:54 PM

There have been a lot of reports of harassment from plenty of other groups of people as well.

That they are happening at all says enough by itself.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#155452: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:16:01 PM

@ Bense, given the choice between immediate drastic change that results in upending the current order and a high risk of active disenfranchisement of the formerly privileged, or a slower but surer implementation of progress (similar to the Democrats' current approach to LGBT rights) I usually prefer the latter.

But what you're suggesting is not the latter but an overly idealistic hope that the momentum of social change carries enough inertia on its own to continue moving without input. It assumes that The Remnant will not attempt to enact a counterforce to render this change stationary if not actively regressive, when the continued existence of the KKK and the rise of the alt-right shows that's not the case. If society is to continue moving forward then people must take action.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:21:23 PM by AlleyOop

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#155453: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:16:03 PM

And guess who started running for president in 2015, complete with an anti-Muslim campaign? Oh right...

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#155454: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:16:14 PM

@Alley Oop: According to this, as of 2 days ago she had 61,964,263 votes, which would be a difference of 1,002,296 votes more than Trump. According to wiki, Rmoneynote  had 60,933,504. But Bush II got 62,040,610 on his second term. Depending on the total count, she might get enough to surpass him.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:18:17 PM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#155455: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:16:32 PM

You're seriously underestimating the amount of reactionary hatred and bigotry in this country, and humanity in general.
Well, we'll just have to disagree. I did admit to being something of a cockeyed optimist.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#155456: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:18:33 PM

Yes, I would be willing to accept a 10-year delay in being granted civil rights if that delay would ensure that the grant was permanent.

And everybody should accept your way because you have the power to force them to?

Also I'd note that many people would not have survived those ten years, so you'd be condeming them to death.

Plus I dispute your assumption that it would oynlt are ten years, many places in the US would simple have become akin to Saudi Arabia, Belarus and Apartheid South Africa (which is part fell due to international pressure, someone I assume you'd oppose).

As for your optimism, considering how many states still have laws criminalising homosexuality on the books I find it hard to agree with.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:19:30 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#155458: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:19:15 PM

Given who we just elected I'd say the idea that we'll naturally float towards progressiveness is sorta out the window now.

Oh really when?
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#155459: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:19:21 PM

This isn't exactly a good time or place to bring up moral relativity.
You did say humanity cares about comfort more than justice. I assume a simplistic black & white moral worldview is pretty damn comfy.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155460: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:19:28 PM

Well, we'll just have to disagree. I did admit to being something of a cockeyed optimist.

Sure, but just keep in mind a lot of minorities everywhere disagree with you as well. I'm not going to make any assumptions about your race or your background, but I'll just say it's a different situation when you're part of a group being denied civil rights and you've fought against prejudice and hatred all your life.

I don't think the results of this election speak very well of the american electorate, given that they put into power a snake oil salesman demagogue with a cult of personality based on white nationalism. It's a culmination of a variety of factors, the least malicious of which are apathy and ignorance, neither of which is very flattering either.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:22:54 PM by Draghinazzo

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#155461: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:21:21 PM

[up][up]White supremacy is pretty indefensible as a moral position. There's just no two ways about that.

Oh really when?
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#155462: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:21:36 PM

Ten years is a long time to ask people to wait when they're being denied jobs, housing, or legal recognition. There may be people willing to give up those rights for themselves in exchange for a guarantee of permanent rights for the people who come after them, but on the eve of a presidency that's set to roll back rights for almost every disadvantaged demographic in the country, the idea of permanent rights for minorities in America is looking more like a pipe dream.

It's been fun.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#155464: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:22:59 PM

When people's lives are literally at stake when they don't have certain rights, asking to "wait" is pretty fucking insulting in my view.

New Survey coming this weekend!
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#155465: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:23:25 PM

[up][up]And you have a rather worrying idea of what is remotely acceptable if I'm reading you properly.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:23:33 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155466: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:23:34 PM

[up][up][up]Dude, come on. I'm all for nuance and recognizing the subjectivity of morality but is this really the best time?

You did say humanity cares about comfort more than justice. I assume a simplistic black & white moral worldview is pretty damn comfy.

There are a lot situations where the moral or right thing becomes complex, yes, but this isn't one of them.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:26:52 PM by Draghinazzo

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#155467: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:23:39 PM

Ten years is a long time to ask people to wait when they're being denied jobs, housing, or legal recognition. There may be people willing to give up those rights for themselves in exchange for a guarantee of permanent rights for the people who come after them, but on the eve of a presidency that's set to roll back rights for almost every disadvantaged demographic in the country, the idea of permanent rights for minorities in America is looking more like a pipe dream.
Don't forget education. Ten years is way too long for a kid to wait for proper education.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:24:12 PM by Kayeka

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#155468: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:27:22 PM

@ IF Wanderer

Thanks, that's really interesting. It's not at the level of the 17 million vote gap of the 1984 elections but that was a clear uniform EC and popular vote blowout. I imagine there's only so much of a gap you can achieve to win the popular vote while having the EC votes not match.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#155469: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:27:25 PM

Wow, 14 pages since I was here last. Anything notable happened?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155470: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:28:05 PM

Also, shout outs to Obama for being so dedicated to sticking up for the people of America even after leaving the presidency.

Nobody's perfect, but he's setting an example.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:28:31 PM by Draghinazzo

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#155471: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:30:03 PM

[up][up][up]Wikipedia's article on the EC says this (bolded the relevant part):

It was estimated in 2011, in a two-candidate race, with equal voter turnout in every Congressional district and no faithless electors, a candidate could win the Electoral College while winning only about 22% of the nationwide popular vote. This would have then required the candidate in question to win each one of the following states by just one vote: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.

So the gap is of about 66% of the vote.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:30:33 PM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#155472: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:35:16 PM

Dude, come on. I'm all for nuance and recognizing the subjectivity of morality but is this really the best time? There are a lot situations where the moral or right thing becomes complex, yes, but this isn't one of them.
Well how do you convince Trump's more "nostalgic" supporters that they've been looking at the world through a distorted lens then?

Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#155473: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:35:59 PM

If we want to talk about moral absolutism vs. moral relativism, there's a topic for that.

Nervmeister, if we have to tell you one more time to cut out the concern trolling vis-a-vis moral subjectivism, then it's kaput for you. You have been warned many, many times about this.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#155474: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:36:45 PM

[up][up] Yes, well, I think we've concluded that many of them will have to die of natural causes for their opposition to civil rights to fade. That's not going to change; some people are simply not persuadable with any reasonable amount of resources. We should be reaching out to the ones who are and marginalizing the ones who aren't.

edited 15th Nov '16 2:37:09 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155475: Nov 15th 2016 at 2:37:36 PM

That doesn't really have an easy answer. You can be patient and make all the appeals to morality and their own self-interest that you want, but some people really just don't give a shit about anybody other than themselves. Indifference can be just as destructive as hatred.

Ultimately you just have to make the best argument you can and accept some people will never accept it. Older people especially, will probably not change their views.


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