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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#154401: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:39:04 PM

Ideally, there shouldn't be a minimum wage, and wages should be determined by negotiations between organized labor and employers, as is the case in the Nordic countries. Unfortunately, labor unions were absolutely gutted in the United States, particularly in red states, so that isn't happening.
Well, if we're going to do that. Can we also drastically cut corporate taxes, enact tons of free trade policies, drastically increase taxes on the middle class, and drastically increase regressive forms of taxation such as VAT, like the Nordic countries? I'd be in favor of most of that. There's a reason Denmark has a a higher Economic Freedom rating than the USA, after all.

edited 12th Nov '16 5:42:26 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#154402: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:51:27 PM

Well, knowing how the US companies operate I wouldn't really trust them to do that, leaving the wages to be negotiated would certainly leave the legal workers on the same situation of the illegal ones, they get shit for payment and can't really complain about it.

If the US adopts something like that it would need strong workers unions, a lot of incentives for the companies to simply not send their money abroad and focus on hire locally over just shipping those jobs abroad after taking the tax cuts.

Also the Nordics have a small and highly educated population, doing the Nordic model would be complicated in the US due to the amount of economic, social and educational disparity present in the United States as a whole.

The US and plenty of parts of the world have problems with wage slavery already and how the 7 something $/h isn't enough to provide some decent living.

edited 12th Nov '16 5:57:12 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#154403: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:57:19 PM

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic in response to Capsase, Nox.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#154404: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:57:40 PM

[up][up][up] It's not politically feasible in the United States, unfortunately.

[up] No he's more or less describing how the Nordic countries run their economies; they have far more economic freedom than the states, but also far more robust labor unions, and far less cronyism stifling competition.

Plus the best social safety nets in the world.

edited 12th Nov '16 6:03:11 PM by CaptainCapsase

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#154405: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:03:19 PM

It'll be years before we have unions that strong, though. Plus we'd need to eradicate the "right to work" laws in various states, including my own.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#154406: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:04:24 PM

How would you go about getting rid of those laws anyways? Where's the political will for that gonna come from?

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#154407: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:05:24 PM

Actually the US ranks higher then all of the Nordic nations in the Economic Freedom Index, at least as of 2016.

Either way I would not say that Economic freedom is anywhere near the greatest measure of the actual well-being of a nation and focusing in that seems pretty useless to me.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#154408: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:09:24 PM

Populist outrage? That's what got unions formed in the first place. Populism is neutral by itself, it's how it's directed that's important.

Plus the fact that the Nordic nations have the unions, businesses, and government discussing things on basically equal terms is foreign to this nation that thrives on confrontation and keeping the government out of direct negotiations like that. So. We'd have to figure out how to make that a thing in this country.

See, shit like this is why Democrats need to get better at the state level.

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#154409: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:09:31 PM

Not sure if it's been reported here yet, but Trump wants to split his time between the Whitehouse and his Trump Tower home. The security issue would be a goddamn nightmare.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#154410: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:12:12 PM

Man, he really doesn't wanna be President huh?

Oh really when?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#154411: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:15:38 PM

Just so I know, this is highly unusual right? Don't most presidents get chained to DC for most of their time if they're not on diplomatic visits or whatever?

edited 12th Nov '16 6:20:31 PM by Draghinazzo

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#154412: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:17:33 PM

Pretty much. Seems the idea of being effectively handcuffed to a desk and having proper responsibility has Trump worried.

Oh really when?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#154413: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:18:03 PM

Question: if Trump decided to just bow out, who'd become President?

Oh God! Natural light!
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#154414: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:18:19 PM

[up]x3 Yes. DC is a city designed with the protection of the POTUS in mind. All the important communication equipment, underground bunkers etc. are also build into the WH. The POTUS is one of the least free person in the entire world.

edited 12th Nov '16 6:18:43 PM by nightwyrm_zero

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#154415: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:18:19 PM

I dunno, I seem to recall that Dubya spent a lot of time in Texas instead of DC.

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#154416: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:19:35 PM

[up]Much easier to secure a remote ranch than a skyscraper in the middle of NYC.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#154417: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:19:42 PM

I have no doubt that some of his staff is pushing as hard as possible to keep him out of Washington, so they have one less interference to deal with.

And honestly, I wouldn't mind. The less he gets his grubby little hands on the White House, the less they'll have to scrub it down once he leaves.

edited 12th Nov '16 6:20:04 PM by Eschaton

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#154418: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:20:00 PM

I feel embarrasingly out of the loop on a lot of issues. Any good news sources?

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#154419: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:21:20 PM

@Karkat: If Trump "bowed out" before the Electors vote on Dec 19, I assume that it would simply be aatter of whoever they choose, presumably Mike Pence. If he did so after the Electors vote, assuming no mass revolt among the EC or every single absentee ballot turning out to be for Hillary, it would definitely fall to the Vice President-elect, Mike Pence.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#154420: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:21:41 PM

And the more Pence gets to sit in the Oval Office, though.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#154421: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:22:00 PM

From the same site, a couple of other things Trump has said:

Apparently there will be a plan ready to launch by the time Obamacare is repealed Somehow I really doubt it's that simple...

Compliments Clinton, calling her 'strong' and 'smart' and saying she was very gracious in defeat and conceding, much more than he would have been Just basic PR talk but I'm honestly shocked that he would even admit he wouldn't be as gracious as Clinton on anything.

Trump praising social media, but saying he'll be more "restrained" with his twitter use.

He said something interesting:

"It’s a modern form of communication. There should be nothing you should be ashamed of. It’s where it’s at. I do believe this, I really believe that the fact that I have such power in terms of numbers with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, et cetera — I think it helped me win all of these races where they’re spending much more money than I spent," Trump said. "I think that social media has more power than the money they spent, and I think maybe to a certain extent, I proved that."

edited 12th Nov '16 6:24:45 PM by Draghinazzo

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#154422: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:25:00 PM

[up] It's certainly possible, I think. His social media stuff seems to have been a lot stronger than Hillary's, at least.

Oh God! Natural light!
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#154423: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:26:17 PM

Given that Zuckerburg and Co. actually sat down and talked about it before using yet another bullshit rationalisation? Yes.

New York Times: Facebook Is Said to Question Its Influence in Election

SAN FRANCISCO — Late on Tuesday night, as it became clear that Donald J. Trump would defeat Hillary Clinton to win the presidential election, a private chat sprang up on Facebook among several vice presidents and executives of the social network.

What role, they asked each other, had their company played in the election’s outcome?

Facebook’s top executives concluded that they should address the issue and assuage staff concerns at a quarterly all-hands meeting. They also called a smaller meeting with the company’s policy team, according to three people who saw the private chat and are familiar with the decisions; they requested anonymity because the discussion was confidential.

Facebook has been in the eye of a postelection storm for the last few days, embroiled in accusations that it helped spread misinformation and fake news stories that influenced how the American electorate voted. The online conversation among Facebook’s executives on Tuesday, which was one of several private message threads that began among the company’s top ranks, showed that the social network was internally questioning what its responsibilities might be.

Even as Facebook has outwardly defended itself as a nonpartisan information source — Mr. Zuckerberg said at a conference on Thursday that Facebook affecting the election was “a pretty crazy idea” — many company executives and employees have been asking one another if, or how, they shaped the minds, opinions and votes of Americans.

Some employees are worried about the spread of racist and so-called alt-right memes across the network, according to interviews with 10 current and former Facebook employees. Others are asking whether they contributed to a “filter bubble” among users who largely interact with people who share the same beliefs.

Even more are reassessing Facebook’s role as a media company and wondering how to stop the distribution of false information. Some employees have been galvanized to send suggestions to product managers on how to improve Facebook’s powerful news feed: the streams of status updates, articles, photos and videos that users typically spend the most time interacting with.

“A fake story claiming Pope Francis — actually a refugee advocate — endorsed Mr. Trump was shared almost a million times, likely visible to tens of millions,” Zeynep Tufekci, an associate professor at the University of North Carolina who studies the social impact of technology, said of a recent post on Facebook. “Its correction was barely heard. Of course Facebook had significant influence in this last election’s outcome.”

This image of Facebook as a partisan influencer and distributor of bad information is at odds with how the company views itself, former and current employees said. Chris Cox, a senior vice president of product and one of Mr. Zuckerberg’s top lieutenants, has long described Facebook as an unbiased and blank canvas to give people a voice. Employees and executives genuinely believed they were well-intentioned and acting as a force for good, these people said.

Facebook declined to comment beyond a previously released statement that it was “just one of many ways people received their information — and was one of the many ways people connected with their leaders, engaged in the political process and shared their views.”

The postelection questioning caps a turbulent year for Facebook, during which its power to influence what its 1.79 billion users watch, read and believe has increasingly been criticized. Almost half of American adults rely on Facebook as a source of news, according to a study by the Pew Research Center. And Facebook often emphasizes its ability to sway its users with advertisers, portraying itself as an effective mechanism to help promote their products.

Inside Facebook, employees have become more aware of the company’s role in media after several incidents involving content the social network displayed in users’ news feeds.

In May, the company grappled with accusations that politically biased employees were censoring some conservative stories and websites in Facebook’s Trending Topics section, a part of the site that shows the most talked-about stories and issues on Facebook. Facebook later laid off the Trending Topics team.

In September, Facebook came under fire for removing a Pulitzer Prize-winning photo of a naked 9-year-old girl, Phan Thi Kim Phuc, as she fled napalm bombs during the Vietnam War. The social network took down the photo for violating its nudity standards, even though the picture was an illustration of the horrors of war rather than child pornography.

Both those incidents seemed to worsen a problem of fake news circulating on Facebook. The Trending Topics episode paralyzed Facebook’s willingness to make any serious changes to its products that might compromise the perception of its objectivity, employees said. The “napalm girl” incident reminded many insiders at Facebook of the company’s often tone-deaf approach to nuanced situations.

Throughout, Mr. Zuckerberg has defended Facebook as a place where people can share all opinions. When employees objected in October to the stance of Peter Thiel, a Facebook board member, in supporting Mr. Trump, Mr. Zuckerberg said, “We care deeply about diversity” and reiterated that the social network gave everyone the power to share their experiences.

More recently, issues with fake news on the site have mushroomed. Multiple Facebook employees were particularly disturbed last week when a fake news site called The Denver Guardian spread across the social network with negative and false messages about Mrs. Clinton, including a claim that an F.B.I. agent connected to Mrs. Clinton’s email disclosures had murdered his wife and shot himself.

On Thursday, after a companywide meeting at Facebook, many employees said they were dissatisfied with an address from Mr. Zuckerberg, who offered comments to staff that were similar to what he has said publicly.

Even in private, Mr. Zuckerberg has continued to resist the notion that Facebook can unduly affect how people think and behave. In a Facebook post circulated on Wednesday to a small group of his friends, which was obtained by The New York Times, Mr. Zuckerberg challenged the idea that Facebook had a direct effect on the way people voted.

In the three-paragraph post, the chief executive cited several statistics about low voter turnout during the election.

Then Mr. Zuckerberg wrote: “So rather than focusing on strengths or weaknesses in specific demographics, or other factors that may have pushed this race in one direction or another, these stats clearly suggest what many people have said all along. Both candidates were very unpopular.”

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#154424: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:28:19 PM

So all these new absentee ballots being counted are showing that Hillary won the popular vote by a huge margin, what happens it if flips a state or two for her?

Oh really when?
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#154425: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:33:21 PM

Not much unless it takes Trump under 270. So long as he has 270 (assuming no faithless Electors), he wins. If they tie 269/269 (or a faithless Elector makes it 269/268/1 other), it goes to the House for POTUS and the Senate for VPOTUS, and Trump and Pence still win because the House and Senate are still controlled by the GOP.

I mean, any flipped states send their Democratic Party Electors instead of their Republican Party Electors, but unless it crosses that magic 270 threshold, nothing meaningful changes.

edited 12th Nov '16 6:34:29 PM by Balmung


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