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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#154376: Nov 12th 2016 at 1:46:22 PM

@Pseudopartisan: Ideally there should be no minimum wage, but extensive protection for organized labor and a strong social safety net such that workers can negotiate with employers for a fair wage on relatively equal ground.

That's politically impossible in the United States however, so minimum wage increases are what we have to do.

edited 12th Nov '16 1:47:13 PM by CaptainCapsase

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#154377: Nov 12th 2016 at 1:47:28 PM

@Pseudopartition

Yes, but i didn't see it much outside of the DNC conference. She didn't emphasize it as much in the three debates for instance.

edited 12th Nov '16 1:53:03 PM by AlleyOop

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#154378: Nov 12th 2016 at 1:52:44 PM

[up]Her wonkishness got the better of her. During the debates, she kept telling people to look at her policies on her website. Which I get, policy details are complicated and not really suitable for a 30 second soundbite, but it made her sound like an unhelpful DMV employee. People are lazy and doing actual research is difficult to a lot of people, especially the older folks.

edited 12th Nov '16 1:54:18 PM by nightwyrm_zero

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#154379: Nov 12th 2016 at 1:55:08 PM

Indeed, that was the most frustrating part of me watching her during the debates. I mean, being the kind of person I am I appreciate that she's thorough and rational like that, but most Americans don't have the time, understanding, or mindset to think that way. She didn't have a means of concisely shutting Trump down on the spot like that. And that hurt her.

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#154380: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:07:00 PM

She should've come up with some catchy summary like "New jobs for everybody!" or "Free college for your kids!" or something.

edited 12th Nov '16 2:07:23 PM by nightwyrm_zero

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#154381: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:14:58 PM

Texas..... Is no longer issuing birth certificates to children of illegal immigrants.

With no document to prove their US soil birth, these citizens have no way of proving their citizenship.

This is clearly a violation of civil rights isn't it?

edited 14th Nov '16 5:56:14 AM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#154383: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:16:22 PM

Time to see if the rule of law remains in the US under Trump.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#154384: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:19:26 PM

I don't feel good about the chances of that being repealed because of the GOP controlling everything now but here's hoping.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#154385: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:21:16 PM

[up]Well, Obama's still in office. Maybe he can get this sorted out before he takes off?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#154386: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:25:49 PM

To precise...you need something vagues like "Yes we can" or "We'll make America great again!"....

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#154387: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:29:39 PM

Exactly.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#154388: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:44:45 PM

That's in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment isn't it?

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Technically it says nothing about issuing birth certificates, but isn't that kinda what they're for?

edited 12th Nov '16 2:45:42 PM by AlleyOop

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#154389: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:47:25 PM

Yeah as I read that it's a pretty gross violation but again we have every reason to be afraid of this sticking around for a while.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#154390: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:48:57 PM

Since when do those amendments apply to Republicans anyway?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
RedRob Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
#154391: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:49:38 PM

So here's what people in Japan think of Trump getting elected, if anyone's interested.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet Unless I grew it. In that case, throw it in the trash.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#154392: Nov 12th 2016 at 3:07:06 PM

Blkwht: I assume you meant "issuing". Maybe check for grammar next time.

Anyway, a link would be appreciated. In fact, I'd appreciate if all such radical claims came with a link on such things. It was pretty easy to google and get something from NPR and MSNBC, so like... could you do that next time? Instead of just saying a thing and letting us speculate with no actual information? This is something I ask of everyone in the thread, because it happens a lot.

In any case, it doesn't sound like the judge himself was entirely happy with his own decision. It remains to be seen if any couple will take this up to a higher court and truly bring a challenge to the concept of "born on American soil."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/17/449432963/judge-says-texas-can-continue-denying-birth-certificates-to-immigrants-kids

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/news/2016/01/08/birth-certificate-rule-change-frustrates

It's also about whether or not Mexican ID can count as valid ID in Texas hospitals, apparently. And it's not a requirement to deny, just it can continue to be done.

edited 12th Nov '16 3:21:28 PM by AceofSpades

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#154393: Nov 12th 2016 at 4:39:43 PM

[up]Raise the minimum wage and make college educations free so people can get out of service jobs. That's what Sanders stood for and Clinton didn't.
College is already effectively free if you're actually low income. Doing this (well, to a greater extent- Clinton already planned to raise the minimum wage and make community college free) would've appealed almost solely to young middle to upper middle class white kids, a demographic that A. has historically low turnout and B. was already in Clinton's camp. I have a feeling I see this thrown around so much because that demographic is also highly overrepresented on the Internet. Similarly, Clinton's proposed minimum wage (if going from $7.25 to $15 actually passed, it would be by far the highest minimum wage in the world after adjusting for COL) was already well beyond what was economically sane, and by all indications would've caused more unemployment, not less.

edited 12th Nov '16 11:57:27 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#154394: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:05:07 PM

1) Because no poor person has ever been interested in affordable education, and education has never been a thing that helps people get into well paying jobs? I'm calling bullshit on that one.

2) No, actually, that's not anything that's been indicated and is generally just a fear mongering claim from the right that hasn't been proven. Minimum wages have been depressed for something like thirty years, relative to the rising cost of living just about anywhere. Regardless of whether or not we'd have gotten fifteen dollars an hour, we desperately need a push to raise the minimum wage at the federal level.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#154395: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:13:21 PM

[up][up][up] That whole channel is fascinating.

The Japanese are more informed on American politics and society than some of us here...

SMFH

New Survey coming this weekend!
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#154397: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:14:07 PM

@ [1]

That article is trying to set up the elections/reactions of/to Trump to be equivalent to that of Obama.

And in some ways, you're right. Surface level reactions are pretty similar. Panic, riots, protest.

However, there is a fundamental difference. Obama wasn't someone who wanted to ban Christianity and throw everyone's guns in the ocean. He wasn't a secret Muslim or from Kenya.

Most of the reasons that people are worried about Trump are based on everything he's said and done during his entire campaign.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#154398: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:19:06 PM

That article also has the problem of not addressing the problem of people committing hate crimes in Trump's name. Like, I can't deny that the possibility of Trump not personally doing anything horrible exists, but he's certainly inspired other people to do horrible things.

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#154399: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:31:10 PM

1) Because no poor person has ever been interested in affordable education, and education has never been a thing that helps people get into well paying jobs?
Education is already effectively free if you truly cannot afford it. Take the UC system I go to for example. 55% of the students pay zero tuition. Most of it is paid for by people in the 90k-200k income bracket (e.g. my family), who pay close to full price. Unsurprisingly, it is often the upper middle class white kids from wealthy liberal states who will you hear complaining about college costs.

The system with which we pay for college now is far more progressive than the actual tax system.

2) No, actually, that's not anything that's been indicated and is generally just a fear mongering claim from the right that hasn't been proven.
It's been proven repeatedly. But don't take my word for it; I'm simply a second-year student who's taken a couple of Economics courses. Consult actual economists:

http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/113th-congress-2013-2014/reports/44995-MinimumWage.pdf

More professional economists surveyed than not agree that a $9 would be bad for unskilled employment. The CBO estimated that a minimum wage increase of $1.75 to $9.00 would cause 100,000 job losses, and an increase of of $2.85 to $10.10 would cause 500,000 job losses, disproportionately concentrated in the demographic of young minorities. The number of jobs lost accelerates geometrically as the minimum wage hike increases linearly. $15 as proposed by the party's left wing is absolutely insane. That's more than 25% higher than Australia's.

If you don't believe those fancy-shmancy economists, just look at the real world. You know what the OECD countries with the highest minimum wage relative to median wage are? Turkey, Chile, and France. They all have high youth unemployment rates of 19%, 17%, and 25% respectively. Fifth on the list is New Zealand with a youth unemployment rate of 16%. Luxembourg has 15%. Australia, which has a very strong economy and wasn't hit nearly as hard in 2008 as anyone else, and only has a minimum wage equivalent to about 9.50 USD, still has a youth unemployment rate over 12%.

Or look at Puerto Rico. When the US imposed its federal minimum wage on Puerto Rico, growth and employment nosedived. The minimum wage essentially stopped PR's export based industrialization in its tracks and caused thirty years of economic stagnation, a fact that is well documented. Today their youth unemployment rate is almost 30% despite hundreds of thousands of young people leaving for mainland US in droves!

It's also rather ironic that opposition to really high minimum wages has become known as a right wing belief. Do you know who the first big advocates for a minimum wage were in the Anglosphere? Do you know why it was so high in the first place? It had a specific purpose back then. It involved minorities.

edited 17th Nov '16 12:55:56 AM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#154400: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:33:41 PM

Ideally, there shouldn't be a minimum wage, and wages should be determined by negotiations between organized labor and employers, as is the case in the Nordic countries. Unfortunately, labor unions were absolutely gutted in the United States, particularly in red states, so that isn't happening.


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