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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#154326: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:34:45 AM

[up] Of course, but that being said, when confronted with a candidate who spoke to their economic anxieties but offended their racial anxieties (Obama), many of these people chose the former.

Jasaiga Since: Jan, 2015
#154327: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:35:02 AM

Wait a minute...

Since Trump has disdain for the media and all that...

What the hell happens to PBS and NPR?

My god...

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#154328: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:36:15 AM

Can I get some statistics on that? Not trying to be a jerk, just wondering.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#154329: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:38:19 AM

The Rust Belt isn't critical to Democratic successes, at least the rural vote there isn't. If the Dems get their own turnout back up, they'll be able to turn Virginia, NC, Florida and Pennsylvania again. And if they get their economic message targeted properly (to the middle class there, who care the economy and trade more than identity politics, they can write the racists off in the process) they'll be able to contest the Midwest again to. Plus they are slow expanding in Arizona, Georgia, and Texas due to shifts in demographics.

Trump didn't win in a landslide, he didn't re-write the map, and he hasn't secured a persistent path to 270 for the Republicans in the future. He won by the skin of his teeth in a few critical states. The Dems definitely have a chance to come back, if they get their turnout back up and follow Bill's advice and adjust their message to certain groups.

edited 12th Nov '16 10:39:46 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#154330: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:38:45 AM

[up][up][up]Dude. No need to overreact. Besides, doing something on that level would likely violate at least one constitutional amendment, and may even lead to him getting impeached. The fact is, it just isn't a very likely or realistic scenario.

edited 12th Nov '16 10:40:01 AM by kkhohoho

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#154331: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:41:28 AM

@Pseudopartisan: Many of Trump's voters in the rust belt voted for Obama in 2012, and here's a WaPo article on it.

[up] The GOP could easily defund publicly subsidized news outlets however, and if The Propaganda Model is correct, the ability of state to revoke access to reporters and outlets that defy them already tends to result in news hewing towards the interests of the state even in a nation with freedom of the press.

edited 12th Nov '16 10:43:56 AM by CaptainCapsase

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#154332: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:44:32 AM

And can Trump lose the voters he took from Obama if he runs the economy into the ground. One cycle does not get you a reliable base.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#154333: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:46:47 AM

[up] It doesn't, but there's no guarantee Trump will do that, and if the economy doesn't crash, if it's doing reasonably well by the time Trump is up for reelection, the democrats need to be able to appeal to this base.

edited 12th Nov '16 10:48:34 AM by CaptainCapsase

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#154334: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:49:28 AM

I don't think Roe vs Wade will itself get overturned; as with gay marriage that would require a case working itself all the way through lower courts. What can be done is already being done; defunding Planned Parenthood as much as possible, since it's a case where there actually is money involved. But the ruling itself has like thirty years or more of precedent behind it, and would be hard to remove.

As for Obamacare: he's been so very confused about what's involved in the act that I'm not sure Trump even knows what he's talking about at this point. The Republicans are probably just going to put forth the same repeal bill as they've been putting forth, hope the Democrats don't manage to stonewall it, and get Trump to sign it into law.

SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#154335: Nov 12th 2016 at 10:56:26 AM

...for some reason looking up that wall street link link I shared on my last post on google got across the paywall.

You guys might want to do that. The full text has some important stuff.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#154336: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:09:50 AM

Also, it seems I was mistaken.

The link I used was not the one that twitter post shared.

Sorry for the mistake.

Now if you pardon I am gonna try to distance myself from the topic again. Because I am letting it affect me too much.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#154337: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:10:04 AM

Also Obama wrote a rule into place that makes it much, much harder to defund Planned Parenthood. So there's that.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#154338: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:18:58 AM

And if they get their economic message targeted properly (to the middle class there, who care the economy and trade more than identity politics, they can write the racists off in the process) they'll be able to contest the Midwest again to.

See I agree with you, but some people seem to twisting refocusing the ecenomic message because it might appeal to some Trump voters and they don't want to win over such people.

[up] What's to stop Trump writing a rule to remove Obama's rule.

edited 12th Nov '16 11:19:55 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#154339: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:22:42 AM

IIRC, the Planned Parenthood thing was an Executive Order, aaaaaand Trump's already promised to abolish all of those. Doesn't mean he will, but I can see there being strong support from the Republicans. Because why would women want affordable cancer screenings, and access to contraceptives? Obviously, only eeeeeeeeeevil, godless women don't want 15 kids, and the only thing PP does is facilitate that. Also, something about baby parts.

edited 12th Nov '16 11:25:35 AM by Pseudopartition

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#154340: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:26:20 AM

It feels like a common mistake here that people think advocating for a message change of "focus more on economic issues" = "disavow minority issues entirely"/"pander to the racists". It's not necessarily a zero sum game. Nobody's suggesting that at all. What it means is what it means. The Democrats focused disproportionately on combating bigotry as an impetus against Trump, which worked for a lot of people in the cities who are exposed to diversity and have economic opportunity, when for a lot of people whose experience rendered it a big load of Values Dissonance it fell very low on their priorities, and therefore fell on deaf ears.

What we're actually saying is the Democrats should put economic issues forward as the broad thesis statement of their campaign, while also still talking about minority rights issues as a secondary tenet of their platform. You didn't see Clinton harp on environmental issues as much but that doesn't mean she didn't make it part of her platform.

You may say, if these people don't care enough to have voted against Trump at that point then they don't deserve our help, but then the Democrats will just continue to lose and we'll be stuck with the Republicans for another four years. You can campaign primarily on economic issues while still putting out a message of tolerance and anti-bigotry. Bernie Sanders already showed that was possible. And yes, he lost the primaries, but still the point is that these issues can coexist on the platform. They don't have to be mutually exclusive like some of you are implying.

edited 12th Nov '16 11:58:30 AM by AlleyOop

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#154341: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:36:46 AM

What is this thing with "economic anxiety" being in scare quotes?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#154342: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:42:10 AM

It's an implication that it's just a front for racism and xenophobic anxieties.

The thing is that a lot of the time it's not really one or the other, the two play into each other ("i'm afraid of losing my job and i have no future or money, it's those immigrants and the muslims they're to blame blah blah) but it is also true that for some of them the economics matter more and they just happened to be complicit in bigotry through ignorance rather than being super racist. That's still a moral deficiency but it also means that the Dems might be able to court their vote with the correct economic message.

It has already been pointed out that some Trump supporters voted for Obama because he promised change just like he did, they want more change now. They might be racist but not SO racist that it was the main motivation for them voting.

edited 12th Nov '16 11:43:37 AM by Draghinazzo

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#154343: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:43:47 AM

[up] Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it will be POSITIVE change...

edited 12th Nov '16 11:44:14 AM by Bat178

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#154344: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:46:13 AM

He's trying to claim economics isn't ''really' an issue and that all Trump supporters are bigoted and using it as a dogwhistle to hide it. Which is exactly the kind of false consciousness BS that the Democrats seem to have bought into and why they lost. I still don't think Sanders would've won the presidency, but he was fairly popular among white voters despite his tacit support for minority rights which suggests a lot of the not-so-tolerant voters really do care more about economic issues than xenophobia.

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#154345: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:47:13 AM

Caught out by satire article. Stand by.

edited 12th Nov '16 11:49:03 AM by Deadbeatloser22

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#154346: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:49:38 AM

And look, just because people don't seem to realize that those manufacturing jobs are gone... people still need work? It's not like there's an overabundance of employment in the cities, either. From what I understand (and it's mentioned in the Wa Po article), service jobs (in the US) barely pay the rent, let alone anything else. To be honest, I just don't know what needs to be done. It feels like there needs to be radical change, but what kind of change?

edited 12th Nov '16 11:50:30 AM by Pseudopartition

Arutema Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#154347: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:54:34 AM

There's a friend of mine who sums up this election so well.

We work together and we've both seen the same thing, rising premiums under Obamacare, and coworkers sacked as entire departments were outsourced to India.

After supporting Sanders in the primaries, he'd researched all 4 candidates on the Texas ballot, Clinton, Trump, Stein, and Johnson. He was prepared to cast a write-in vote for Harambe, a dead gorilla, over any of them, because he didn't trust any of them to turn things around.

This is voter apathy at its finest, and it's why voters Clinton was hoping to carry her to victory didn't turn out.

[up]Raise the minimum wage and make college educations free so people can get out of service jobs. That's what Sanders stood for and Clinton didn't.

edited 12th Nov '16 11:56:30 AM by Arutema

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#154348: Nov 12th 2016 at 11:56:36 AM

Glenn Beck writes about the importance of discussion and communication.

Our country is in trouble — we all feel it. The pendulum of division and hate is swinging faster. I think, in many ways unfortunately and regretfully, I am uniquely qualified to provide this message of warning and hope.

The two party system has created loyal soldiers. This started long ago, but let’s start with George W. Bush. Even before Sept. 11, he was demonized. Not just his policies or principles, but his decency and humanity: selected, not elected; stupid; evil; hates black people; and so on.

The right in turn wrapped everything in the flag. We pushed our oratory to the maximum red-white-and blue position, and if you didn’t understand it, the chants began: “Move to Canada,” or “Texas should secede.” Sound familiar?

In 2008 people needed hope and elected it. But we conservatives did not get the hope and change we wanted, so we switched places with liberals. When people like me raised questions about Barack Obama’s history, relationships and qualifications, we were dismissed. For our concerns, we were told to get ready for a “fundamental transformation”; we were bitter and clung to our guns and God.

From the swelling ranks of the frustrated, disenfranchised, unemployed and scared, the Tea Party sprouted. The media made Occupy Wall Street into heroes, while the Tea Party was called a bunch of dangerous hicks. I don’t think any of us truly understood what was fermenting around us.

If you voted for Hillary Clinton this week, you likely feel despondent, confused and unable to reconcile how the country elected Donald J. Trump. “Don’t people see how dangerous this man is?” Clinton supporters asked. “Our entire way of life is at stake.”

I get it. I opposed Mr. Trump, too. But this is how nearly half the country felt eight years ago. It does not matter if we do not understand one another’s feelings. What matters is that we at least hear them.

How do we stop the cycle?

Tuesday night, as it became apparent that Mr. Trump would win, I saw myself as others may see me. Pundits were beside themselves talking about sexism, “whitelash” and bigotry. I read three articles comparing him to Hitler. I understand what they meant. But just as President Obama was not a Manchurian candidate, Mr. Trump is not Hitler. The seeds of 1933 may have been planted, but they can grow only through our hate and divisiveness.

I don’t question your right and reasons to feel fear. But don’t fear Donald Trump the way I feared Barack Obama. I read a perfect election summation: The people who were against Mr. Trump took him literally but not seriously. His supporters took him seriously but not literally. It is the same pattern of 2000 and 2008. We heard President Obama was coming for our church and our guns. We were mocked. We thought those who laughed were lying or stupid. Yet, I still go to church, sometimes with a gun.

Wednesday night the streets were already chanting obscenities and calling him names he earned as a candidate, but not ones he deserves as our next president. Mr. Obama and Hillary Clinton have offered wise counsel: Give him a chance. The country needs him to succeed and represent all Americans. I can make an argument that Mr. Trump — who has been liberal for much of his life and has supported Planned Parenthood — holds views that resonate with liberals, including restricting trade and spending $1 trillion on infrastructure. The left and the right may find they have some common ground.

If our Mr. Trump, or any future president, should decide to round up Muslims (or any group) as America did with Japanese during World War II under Franklin D. Roosevelt, I will declare, “I am a Muslim.” My values, honor, integrity and the Bill of Rights demand I stand for those most unlike me — that is when it counts.

Let’s get past politics and find common principles. Can we all agree that we live in historic times and we are all determined to leave a legacy for our children of courage, kindness and reconciliation that makes their life better than ours?

I want to meet with any nonpolitical thought leaders on the left who are sincere and honest in their beliefs — and just listen. I don’t want to convince or to change anyone’s mind. When they can tell me, “Yes, that is how I feel,” we can begin a dialogue. I will listen with my heart as if I was speaking to my spouse, child or friend.

If my journey is just a snapshot and not a 3D video in your eyes, this dire message will not be heard, and 2020 will be worse. But if we listen with love, and risk believing in one another, the consternation about who resides in the White House will prove to be overblown.

I think this is what a lot of laypeople mean when they ask for moderation in the political discourse. Not a cult of centrism but merely having patience when you find someone who you can't possibly understand why they'd have an opinion different from yours, short of actual xenophobia.

[up][up] For one thing there's the matter of population growth combined with manufacturers' shift to automation. One solution is neo-Ludditism, one drastic possibility is forced early retirement or controlled work hours, the other thing is that capitalism is literally unsustainable in the long run and we'll need to shift to a more socialist policy, possibly with negative income, because as much as people want to work there are literally not enough jobs for them. Long as it's more like the Nordic countries than Venezuela and the free market is still available for people to exercise their right to choose.

edited 12th Nov '16 11:59:32 AM by AlleyOop

Gault Laugh and grow dank! from beyond the kingdom Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: P.S. I love you
Laugh and grow dank!
#154349: Nov 12th 2016 at 12:00:43 PM

[up]

Glenn Beck: "I think, in many ways unfortunately and regretfully, I am uniquely qualified to provide this message of warning and hope."

lol

edited 12th Nov '16 12:03:36 PM by Gault

yey
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#154350: Nov 12th 2016 at 12:06:45 PM

Sanders in an interview before the election, notes he plans to follow through on his from the Bottom-Up revolution, and seeks to become a progressive Barry Goldwater:

He may have lost the primaries but he seeks to aim to rebuild the Democratic party from the local Level up, using the remnants of his campaign to do so, which has been transformed into an organization called "Our Revolution".

(Also he pretty much calls out any of his supporters who refused to back Clinton in the general for being Purity Ponies, that defeating Trump was extremely important.)


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