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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#153776: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:10:43 PM

Yeah while more and more white people are becoming conscientious of privilege and it's important to spread awareness of that concept because of what it leads to, a lot of them were probably mostly liberal to begin with.

It's not gonna be a concept that will be easy to understand for, say, the rural voters because they're too insulated. The conversations to have with them will probably need to be different. Because that Cracked about those voters made it really obvious that a lot of liberals legitimately do not understand them or why they became the people they did, and that lack of understanding is only going to cause problems down the line.

In the words of another poster, we need to make it personal.

There's not much I can do on that front myself, but I hope that message gets out to someone who can.

Likewise, the whole "I don't care that you claim you don't hate the blacks, Jews, women, Hispanics, gays, etc., by supporting Trump you're a racist, anti-Semitite, misogynist, homophobe" spiel. In a sense it's true, but that formulation is extremely offputting to people. Some might say tough luck, but all it does is harden people to real change. There's probably other ways to weasel around it, that even if they don't agree with the things Trump says or think he's sincere by it, voting for him increases the megaphone of these actual bigots (notably marking a boundary between alt-righters and the people you're trying to convince). Things like that.

I would be more liable to tell the person, if I felt that they were honest and just misinformed, that I didn't necessarily think they were personally racist but that they made a mistake and enabled someone who was. I imagine the conversation might leave me frustrated a lot of the time but as I said before you're almost never gonna change a person's mind with just one conversation.

There's a fine line where not putting up with bigotry turns into burning bridges and absolutism and I think too many leftists don't understand where it is.

edited 10th Nov '16 9:15:33 PM by Draghinazzo

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#153777: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:20:59 PM

I can't really help but feel that this search for ways to relate to the rural white vote and others who voted for Trump out of desperation is just going to be a lot of wasted effort.

The best you can do is prime our own economic populist message and try to educate the next generation, other then that there is nothing you can really do.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#153778: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:22:56 PM

This is another place where I think it would be wise to take cues from Sanders. While many people seem to have gotten the impression that he was "out of touch" on social justice, his policy proposals were nearly identical to Clinton in that regard. The major difference was that he spent far less time framing it in terms of identity politics, preferring instead to frame these issues in terms of how they affect all Americans.

[up] If we don't, the right will continue winning with this vote, and since the democrats aren't in power, voter suppression isn't particularly feasible, leaving aside the obvious ethical problem with doing that.

edited 10th Nov '16 9:24:12 PM by CaptainCapsase

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#153779: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:26:48 PM

[up][up][up]Essentially it's trying to guilt-trip the person into changing their minds. Shame is a poor tactic for such things. More productive to focus on positive rhetoric, appeal to their sense of decency, succor them. And you're right, it's not a change that happens instantly. People don't really have epiphanies over their bigotry. It's an adjustment.

And like that Boogie video above pointed out, a lot of times it's a matter of demographics. There's only so much you can expect from them to change. Don't blame them for not living up to some lofty standard that chances are is overly high anyway.

[up][up] Infographics indicate that younger voters voted overwhelmingly Democrat. We can make pushes to GTVO but we're not going to gain much new ground from them.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#153780: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:29:06 PM

Are you sure? I've seen people say that the claims of young people voting overwhelmingly Democratic are largely false and based off outdated polling info.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#153781: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:29:24 PM

[up][up][up]That's actually the position I am taking. A sufficiently developed economic populist message can resonate across all Americans and I do think it is something that we can frame to resonate with the rural white vote.

What I don't think is very useful is try to appeal to them in a more direct way or to try to get them to understand the whole identity politics. The latter especially is pretty much a lost cause I think.

edited 10th Nov '16 9:30:02 PM by Mio

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#153782: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:31:55 PM

[up][up] Perhaps, but either way dismissing the older folks as hopeless is kind of how we got to this situation in the first place.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#153783: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:34:44 PM

[up][up] That was my suggestion; don't frame issues like mass incarceration, police brutality, and so on in terms of race. Whites, particularly the poor whites can and do fall victim to these things, and while they disproportionately affect minorities of similar economic status to an alarming degree, I don't think these people really care one way or another about the racial element of it; I wouldn't call it racism as much as racism apathy.

edited 10th Nov '16 9:35:54 PM by CaptainCapsase

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#153784: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:36:18 PM

This is another place where I think it would be wise to take cues from Sanders. While many people seem to have gotten the impression that he was "out of touch" on social justice, his policy proposals were nearly identical to Clinton in that regard. The major difference was that he spent far less time framing it in terms of identity politics, preferring instead to frame these issues in terms of how they affect all Americans.

This is what should be done from now on because older white people will turn off if it's done in the form of race.

general_tiu Since: Jul, 2009
#153785: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:36:56 PM

And now I see Calexit, Florexit, Cascadia-exit, Hawexit?

The first one is real, as many in the media did report on the movement lately.

InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#153786: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:39:39 PM

Honestly I think the Dema should take the moderate route again, just differently. More disconnected from the establishment. Remember, this is after 4 years of Trump, I think we'd be seeing a lot more people willing to take a chance on a boring old politician... without a 20+ year smear campaign behind them.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#153787: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:40:18 PM

>racism apathy

That's actually a really good way to put it. As important as it is to teach that racism is an action rather than a state of being, perhaps that's another thing many older people aren't ready to accept yet. For now there has to be an intermediate period that requires a differentiation between the kind of racism that involves KKK shouting at "niggers" and "kikes", and the kind where un-"woke" white people don't actively contribute or hold openly toxic attitudes but also but fail to do enough to stop it either.

edited 10th Nov '16 10:22:02 PM by AlleyOop

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#153788: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:40:46 PM

[up][up] More neoliberalism isn't going to help anyone, even if the support for free trade is dialed down.

[up] Thanks, though I feel like there has to be a more appealing sounding (in terms of the flow of the words) way of saying that.

edited 10th Nov '16 9:43:41 PM by CaptainCapsase

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#153789: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:43:17 PM

On the youth vote, it does seem like younger voters did go more for Clinton then Trump though that election map meme that's going around is more then a little misleading (it's more 55-40 then 90-5).

There is also some data from Pew that indicates that Clinton did not have as strong youth support as Obama did, and Trump had some more support from the youth vote then Romney did.

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#153790: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:43:23 PM

The seesaw rocks back and forth . . . Gay man attacked hours after Trump election win

Man severely beaten by mob shouting ‘You voted Trump’

__

I'm not exactly religious, but I now pray that the day when I am forced to wear my military reenacting gear as they were originally intended can at least be delayed.

EDIT: how are my posts duplicating with a single "send" click?

edited 10th Nov '16 9:44:34 PM by FluffyMcChicken

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#153791: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:43:23 PM

The seesaw rocks back and forth . . . Gay man attacked hours after Trump election win

Man severely beaten by mob shouting ‘You voted Trump’

__

I'm not exactly religious, but I now pray that the day when I am forced to wear my military reenacting gear as they were originally intended can at least be delayed.

EDIT: how are my posts duplicating with a single "send" click?

edited 10th Nov '16 9:44:34 PM by FluffyMcChicken

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#153792: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:45:02 PM

@Mio: It should be noted that youth turnout in the election was way down. Worse than 2012 I think.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#153793: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:49:49 PM

In general, and many more moderate leftists have already written articles on this, only to be dismissed with great irony for being "straight white men" by the people they're calling out specifically for that kind of behavior, the left has placed way, way too much emphasis on identity politics as of late. Explicit intersectionality and pride in one's multiple identities is great but it also has a tendency to be reductive. Pushing the intersectionality to be more implicit while shifting the explicit focus on economic issues is more likely to have broad appeal.

Also, identity politics are ridiculously easy to exploit and make for a scarily good shield to hide actual bigotry and nationalistic ideas originating from groups who aren't considered Acceptable Targets behind.

edited 10th Nov '16 10:08:47 PM by AlleyOop

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#153794: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:53:18 PM

[up][up]Turnout in general was down in this election.

I imagine there number of factors to that from the media coverage to the length of the campaign itself.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#153795: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:57:42 PM

@General Tiu: No, because the European Union and the United States of America are not the same kinds of organization. The US is a singular country. The EU was a platform for the countries of Europe to discuss those things which affect them all. None of the states are going to be seceding from the US. (It would take more than four years and a truly massive level of fuck ups for us to get to that point.)

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#153796: Nov 10th 2016 at 9:59:21 PM

Remember that statistic based shares of the vote may not properly represent the fact, if Romney got (number purely demonstrative) 30 votes from younge people/minorities/women (pick any one) and Obama got 70 votes from said group then Obama won that group 70%-30%, but if Clinton got 30 votes from said group and Trump got 20 then Trump would have raised the Republican share to 40% despite getting less votes.

Seeing as Dem turnout apparently collapsed while Republican turnout took a (very) small hit it seems less that people voted for Trump than people refused to vote for Clinton. Trump got the same votes Romney got but less, Clinton failed to get the same votes Obama got by a big margin, thus she lost.

edited 10th Nov '16 10:00:31 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#153797: Nov 10th 2016 at 10:10:55 PM

@Alley Oop: Shifting the conversation from racial politics to economic factors is, while perhaps a depressingly pragmatic move, one that unsettles me in that it would be all too easy for people to then essentially forget about racial issues altogether. I can readily believe that doing so would make it easier to gain converts and chip away at the Republican's voting base, but I also can't shake the fear that broadening the conversation to such a degree, purely for the sake of not scaring off the unenlightened, would result in the very real nature of racial injustice being essentially swept under the rug in favor of a bland and untrue "we all have it equally bad" approach. And if that happened, then racial injustice would not be solved, it would only continue to be ignored.

But then there's the sickening fact that, for the next however-many-years, our goal may not be to fix America's problems, but rather to make them merely as bad as they were before Trump took office. After all, learned people are unironically discussing the danger of our future holding things like internment camps, mass deportation, the de facto loss of voting rights for minorities, or worse. Maybe we've passed the point where it's feasible to truly solve America's race problem, and all we can hope to do in the foreseeable future is fight to keep it from getting infinitely worse.

You warn that the left's increasing focus on privilege and self-identification is reductive, but I fear that shifting the discussion away from those things holds the danger of being even more reductive, because it would mean ignoring the nuanced nature of different experiences and different identities and how those things influence activism and social awareness.

I'm not even trying to argue with you here, I'm just voicing my frustration with the entire situation and thinking out loud. I don't want to see discussion of racial injustice in America turn into a shallow and watered-down echo of itself, all depth and hard questions swept away for fear of scaring someone off or making someone feel unwelcome. But then, maybe we have no choice now. Maybe we've already had our chance to address these issues in a comprehensive and complex manner, and we blew it. That thought scares me - but a lot of things are scaring me all of a sudden.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#153798: Nov 10th 2016 at 10:19:50 PM

[up]That's assuming we'll actually have mass deportation and interment camps. The sheer logistics as well as the inevitable public backlash are not on Trump's side, (same with the wall,) not even counting the fact that there's no guarantee he intends to follow through on any of his so called 'policies'.

edited 10th Nov '16 10:20:18 PM by kkhohoho

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#153799: Nov 10th 2016 at 10:23:50 PM

I don't make that assumption, actually - I simply point out how terrifying it is that those things can be remotely considered possibilities at all. Even if it doesn't come to pass, there's no denying that this is new political climate we're entering. (And probably a new actual climate as well, if he does manage to gut the Paris Accords.)

Also, people may very well say that it's ludicrous to think that Trump will be willing or able to implement any of the horrific things he promised. But a while ago, people were saying that it was ludicrous to think that Trump would win.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#153800: Nov 10th 2016 at 10:35:00 PM

Understanding the concerns of Trump voters: Quite frankly I doubt interacting with people on /pol/ or Facebook news comments sections is not going to accomplish much beyond getting yourself doxxed. Scouting out a way to stay in the Rust Belt for months or even years to research the concerns of those there is more practical if we're going there.

However, understanding them alone won't be enough. The TV news media is simply no longer capable of accurately reporting on any candidate's platform unless it is sufficiently ridiculous. Social media spending itself is unlikely to be sufficient, since the most popular content on social media is political "if you believe x then share this" memes by people completely independent of any campaign. If the Democrats wish to be seen to possess policy more in line with the nature of reality, they will need to sell the platform too.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

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