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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#153551: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:15:40 PM

I agree that this thread needs more discussion of opposing views. I identify as liberal, and I get annoyed when I see someone presenting views in a reasonable manner that I either disagree with, or think has a valid point, and the person gets essentially shouted off the thread.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#153552: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:18:27 PM

The fact that this place is oftentimes functionally a beltway echo chamber is the main appeal it has for me. I have a difficult time finding that particular kind of opposed viewpoint in this day and age.

thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#153553: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:19:16 PM

Honestly if Trump and Justin Trudeau prove anything it's that having essentially zero political experience is no barrier to entry so fuck it: kanye/warren 2020

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#153554: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:20:02 PM

Who cares if we're an echo chamber or not? It's not like conservatives will ever listen to us, so why bother trying to reach them? All we can look to do in the next four years is crush the GOP under heel and drag them in line, kicking and screaming if we must. Republicans are the enemy, and we must look to destroying them and pulling up nationalism by its poisonous roots.

Yes, this attitude just worked out great for you all, didn't it? Christ.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#153555: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:21:14 PM

The problem, as I see it, is that a new poster with alternate views will lurk here for a while, see what the prevailing attitude is — and then trollpost (mainly due to GIFT) and immediately be banned.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#153556: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:21:57 PM

These two paragraphs from this politico article are interesting to me:

And some began pointing fingers at the young campaign manager, Robby Mook, who spearheaded a strategy supported by the senior campaign team that included only limited outreach to those voters — a theory of the case that Bill Clinton had railed against for months, wondering aloud at meetings why the campaign was not making more of an attempt to even ask that population for its votes. It’s not that there was none: Clinton’s post-convention bus tour took her through Youngstown, Ohio, as well as Pittsburgh and Harrisburg, where she tried to eat into Trump’s margins with his base. In Scranton and Harrisburg, the campaign aired a commercial that featured a David Letterman clip of Trump admitting to outsourcing manufacturing of the products and clothes that bore his logo. And at campaign stops in Ohio, Clinton talked about Trump’s reliance on Chinese steel.

But in general, Bill Clinton’s viewpoint of fighting for the working class white voters was often dismissed with a hand wave by senior members of the team, as a personal vendetta to win back the voters that elected him, from a talented but aging politician who simply refused to accept the new Democratic map. At a meeting ahead of the convention, where aides presented to both Clintons the “Stronger Together” framework for the general election, senior strategist Joel Benenson told the former president bluntly that the voters from West Virginia were never coming back to his party.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#153557: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:24:32 PM

There are a few posters of "unconventional" tvtropes views around. Swanpride, Knit Tie, D Roy, off the top of my head, tend to clash beliefs with the standard social outlook of tvtropes from time to time. It's just they're sane and reasonable people. This thread tends to get the unreasonable ones.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#153558: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:25:08 PM

The problem, as I see it, is that a new poster with alternate views will lurk here for a while, see what the prevailing attitude is — and then trollpost (mainly due to G.I.F.T.) and immediately be banned

You're not wrong.

I also disagree that it's not worth it to try and talk to conservatives. Not all of them are insane, I'd sure as fuck take talking to a garden variety conservative over some of the kinds of people that voted for Trump. I feel like the worst that would happen is having them say I've been brainwashed by the liberal media or that I'm a SJW, big deal compared to having violence or death threats against my person.

I was pretty close to being borderline alt-right at one point in my life and used to hold some pretty misogynistic ideas. People DO change, it's just that you'll very rarely ever see them do so in the span of one (or several) conversations.

edited 10th Nov '16 4:26:27 PM by Draghinazzo

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#153559: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:25:27 PM

[up][up] If they posted here they'd probably be banned within a matter of time.

edited 10th Nov '16 4:25:43 PM by CaptainCapsase

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#153560: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:27:26 PM

It's more that their views aren't really that incompatible with ours.

Swanpride has posted here multiple times already, just for one. Most of her disagreement with the prevailing TVT sentiment are probably about media representation issues, which are another can of worms entirely.

edited 10th Nov '16 4:28:39 PM by Draghinazzo

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#153561: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:28:31 PM

Swanpride is a frequent contributor in this very thread, Knit Tie frequents other threads in OTC. D Roy's the only one who I think doesn't lurk around here.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#153562: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:29:01 PM

Swan Pride is a righty? whaaaaaaat

No way.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#153563: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:29:11 PM

Speaking of changing, I was in a conspiracy nut phase for about maybe 8/9 years. So yeah, it happens. I grew out of it by seeing the conspiracy websites' predictions fail to come true, noticing holes in their arguments, and also slowly losing interest in reading them because of those things. Which in turn gave me more time to reflect on them critically, and realize "yeah, they pointed out a couple lesser-known facts that no-one talks about, but they're 90+% bullshit."

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#153565: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:32:43 PM

@Gaon: I didn't see much of them during the election period. Nor did I see any of the handful of Republicans who hang around in OTC. Things got ridiculously echo-chambery after the primaries ended, if you want my opinion.

edited 10th Nov '16 4:33:14 PM by CaptainCapsase

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#153566: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:33:55 PM

"a righty"

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#153567: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:35:18 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Well, I see myself as neither rightwing nor leftwing, but pretty much in the centre with a liberal leaning...as such, I tend to clash with BOTH the left and the right, meaning I am just as annoyed with the "if we are nice and tolerant to everyone the world will magically be okay" crowd as I am with the backwards thinking of the right-wing...and like everyone, I actually believe that MY way of thinking is the totally right one, and I am pretty annoyed that the "moderates" so to speak are currently drowned out by the right and the left constantly screaming at each other instead of looking for the middle ground. Especially the left should know better if you ask me, but some "leftists" are just as if not more fanatic than some right-wing defenders.

When it comes to Trump though, I am shocked that he got elected...not because he is a racist or a sexist. He is hardly the first foreign leader who fulfils that particular bill and conservatives tend to be very short-sighted. Not even because he is incompetent...that is true for most American Leaders, since apparently the election is more about showmanship than actual abilities. No, I am shocked because he showed so much open disregard for the constitution. How can anyone trust that he will follow the rules once he is in power? And don't tell me anything about rules and checks which are in place. Those existed for Hitler, too. He just pushed through them. Trump has already shown that he not only gets away with openly flaunting the rules, the American population rewarded him for it.

edited 10th Nov '16 4:35:55 PM by Swanpride

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#153568: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:35:50 PM

You know, I don't think I can name a single policy of hillary's that wasn't "No Free College or Single Payer" or "LOOK AT ME I'M NOT DONALD TRUMP. FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT WOO"

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#153569: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:35:56 PM

[up][up][awesome]

[up]Then you never read her platform. It was the most progressive in her party's history.

edited 10th Nov '16 4:36:38 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#153570: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:36:50 PM

Swanpride is not rightwing. She just has different opinions from the mainstream on here that can be seen as upholding the status quo but it's unfair and exactly the kind of echo chamber nuttery to consider her outright "rightist". I think some of it ultimately does come down to tone and rhetoric, and the fact that she comes from a different culture where issues might not be seen quite the same.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#153571: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:37:29 PM

They're not helping, and I'm seeing headlines from right-wing sites displaying on Google News saying "Trump wins, and left throws a temper tantrum".
Not surprised, but this is hilarious to me, because they would be doing the exact same thing, if Clinton won. Especially with all of the "the election is rigged!" rhetoric.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#153572: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:38:01 PM

[up][up][up] She failed to condense her policy proposals into an easily digestible soundbite, which is what appears to win elections unfortunately.

edited 10th Nov '16 4:38:47 PM by CaptainCapsase

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#153573: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:39:44 PM

@Cap, pretty much. Tweets (God I hate that Twitter exists) are the character limit on policy positions that keep the public's attention.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#153574: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:40:05 PM

[up][up][up][up] Well, that and I like to play devil's advocate from time to time when it comes to issues which are not as clear cut as they seem to be.

edited 10th Nov '16 4:40:17 PM by Swanpride

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#153575: Nov 10th 2016 at 4:40:44 PM

To be fair I did vote for her, but it was somewhat under duress. I'm probably too far left for this country :/

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"

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