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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#147851: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:40:45 PM

[up][up]It's always a matter of "sides" with you, is it? THAT's what kids should be steered away from.

edited 1st Nov '16 3:40:59 PM by nervmeister

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#147852: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:42:18 PM

Sadly, I can see why kids would imitate their Trump-loving parents because it would help them garner more love from their parents. It would help them bond. That doesn't mean it's right, but it does show that some kids go very far to feel loved and accepted.

Do not obey in advance.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#147853: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:44:17 PM

A major problem in this country is the attitude that being called a racist is equally as despicable as the behavior of a racist.

If I might add a little bit to that I think the other side of that coin is that, because "racist" is only something you can be if you're a KKK member, it creates a pretty big emotional investment in the idea of not being racist, no matter what.

In order for the conversation about racism to progress I also think it's important for people to learn that one indiscretion or insensitive comment/action doesn't automatically make them a neo-nazi and that it is possible for them to learn and grow, while still not undermining or underplaying the effects of institutional racism in all of its forms.

As long as people are under the illusion that racism = neo nazi it's going to be very difficult for them to learn anything.

[up][up] Most people end up getting their opinions from other people no matter what you do or don't do, even if they don't just parrot whatever their peers are saying they're probably getting their opinions from somebody else, or at least someone else is making a big contribution towards what they believe in. It's kinda disingenuous to imply that people can just form their opinions in a vacuum.

edited 1st Nov '16 3:47:03 PM by Draghinazzo

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147854: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:44:21 PM

When the utterly repugnant and unsalvageable people are also the ones owning most of the guns and making the bulk of the army, the aggressive approach isn't all too advisable, unless you want to be the last DJ in atheist heaven.

Oh look—Indiana, who once told me that people should stop demonizing Hitler because it ignores the "actual issues he had to deal with" and said that one day Adolf may become a beloved pop cultural icon like Dracula is now threatening to have us all killed by militiamen and/or a military coup because we dared to point out racists are racist.

I wish I could say I'm surprised. I'm not.

edited 1st Nov '16 3:45:48 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#147855: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:47:15 PM

[up][up][up]Dude, my mom wigged out on me for my initial leanings towards Trump (mainly over the TPP). Hell, I'll go one better. She had a clearly disturbed look on her face when I put myself down as "independent" when applying for my latest driver's license. Yeah, not even "republican", and that was enough for a negative reaction from her. This kind of mob mentality in either direction is what needs to go.

edited 1st Nov '16 3:49:21 PM by nervmeister

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#147856: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:49:13 PM

To be fair, the post did make a pretty valid argument up until halfway through. The idea that we're demonizing an entire group of people because they disagree with us is a slippery slope, to abuse that logical fallacy.

Still, I don't think demonizing racism and sexism is a bad thing; it only becomes an issue when ideas different from the democratic party in general are demonized regardless of subject matter.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147857: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:49:18 PM

[up][up]Your mom had every cause to wig out over the possibility of you supporting Trump. What's your point?

[up]I just don't think "the argument was valid until he threatened a coup" is something we should be saying. When someone makes the same argument without the threat of violence I'll be inclined to listen.

edited 1st Nov '16 3:53:21 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#147858: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:51:32 PM

Okay, so 538 is now showing Trump at 30% and Clinton at 69%, with no sign of this reversal of power stopping any time soon.

Should I just stop reading 538, at least for the rest of the election? Because part of me is starting to think that either they just happen to be the only accurate poll in the nation, or that compared to the many polls which are still putting Clinton comfortably ahead, it just isn't quite up to sync with the rest of them anymore. If nothing else, it would certainly be easier on my sanity.tongue

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#147859: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:52:52 PM

[up][up]Ditch the black & white mindset for a sec, and you'll get it.

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#147860: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:53:06 PM

People who do repugnant things shouldn't be called repugnant?

This isn't racism, which derives its hate from purely ethnic and physical differences. This isn't some irrational hatred of a people that never harmed us in any way.

This is reacting to a group of people that are actively voting to screw us as hard as they can.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147861: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:54:14 PM

[up][up]Nope. Don't get it. I guess you'll just have to explain to poor, stupid me why your mother shouldn't have been concerned about the possibility of you voting for the Mussolini impersonator.

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#147862: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:54:38 PM

Given that this line of discussion is starting to break down into gross misreadings of what other people are saying along with borderline personal accusations and insults, I'm going to ask people to stop it now. Otherwise, the mods (of the non-Fighteer variety) will likely need to step in.

Take a few minutes, get a drink, calm down, and then come back.

edited 1st Nov '16 3:55:06 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#147863: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:56:55 PM

I'll second that opinion.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#147864: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:58:31 PM

I'd agree. But even if it stops now it's just going to get brought back up again in like three days.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147865: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:58:55 PM

@kkhohoho

Even if 538 is right there's nothing you can do about it. If it's stressing you out, I suggest you stay away from them—not because they're wrong even, but because what can you do about it?

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#147866: Nov 1st 2016 at 3:59:18 PM

I say you both get hammered and continue the conversation

Srsly tho, it's getting way too personal

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#147867: Nov 1st 2016 at 4:00:47 PM

People do and say bad or wrongheaded things against their better nature sometimes. You can call out the reprehensible words or actions without condemning them for the rest of their lives. If they truly refuse to reform that's one thing. If you refuse to accept even the slightest chance that they could reform, you doom them to a life of hatred.

FalseDichotomy from Your mind :o Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#147868: Nov 1st 2016 at 4:01:33 PM

I don't know if it's been brought up yet in this thread but apparently the FBI just released some information relating to Bill Clinton pardoning some criminal financier without stating any reason for doing this: http://www.newsweek.com/fbi-releasing-documents-clinton-marc-rich-515921

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#147869: Nov 1st 2016 at 4:02:08 PM

[up]x4 Yeah, you're probably right. I think I'll just stick with Daily Kos for now; they still have Clinton sitting pretty at 96%. Thanks, really.

edited 1st Nov '16 4:02:28 PM by kkhohoho

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#147870: Nov 1st 2016 at 4:02:28 PM

And to think, the FBI used to be one of the three letter organizations I actually trusted.

Oh really when?
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#147871: Nov 1st 2016 at 4:03:46 PM

I doubt "better nature" has much to do with it. There's not much you CAN do other than deluge them with information, and hope one or two of them crack a book open every now and then. Maybe learn something.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#147872: Nov 1st 2016 at 4:04:10 PM

[up][up][up]Is confirmation bias really the best thing here?

edited 1st Nov '16 4:04:35 PM by LSBK

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#147873: Nov 1st 2016 at 4:04:10 PM

From my own experience, I also registered "no party affiliation" when getting my license ("Independent" is it's own right-wing fringe party, here in California at least).

However, I am reconsidering it. Because of party politics, we wound up with Clinton and Trump, who are both profoundly disliked by a large chunk of the population who are not Republican/Democrat partisans. As a result, a lot of people are looking are looking at both parties thinking, "I don't want anything to do with this," and the number of non-affiliated voters continues to rise.

But all I see that doing is insulating the parties even more, and we're just gonna wind up in this situation again. More participation is necessary if people want the party to look like how they want it. But then you run into the issue of money, and that's another discussion.

edited 1st Nov '16 4:06:22 PM by Eschaton

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147874: Nov 1st 2016 at 4:05:13 PM

Nobody is saying we don't accept the possibility of them changing.

Look, no matter how many posts are made criticizing the Democrats for refusing to reach out to poor white working class people it will not change the reality that the Democrats have reached out to those people and had their hands slapped away. Almost every single thing that those leveling the criticism have suggested should be done has been done. If they have something new to suggest that will bring those people around I'm all ears.

Some things, however, like refusing to identify racism, or worse still, giving them what they want and enforcing racist policy, simply aren't on the table though.

So, to those saying the Democrats have not done enough to reach out to those poor rural and/or working class voters—what do you recommend that has not already been tried? Seriously, if you've got a solution I'd love to hear it.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#147875: Nov 1st 2016 at 4:05:29 PM

To be fair, the post did make a pretty valid argument up until halfway through. The idea that we're demonizing an entire group of people because they disagree with us is a slippery slope, to abuse that logical fallacy. Still, I don't think demonizing racism and sexism is a bad thing; it only becomes an issue when ideas different from the democratic party in general are demonized regardless of subject matter.
Definitely. Even when Hillary wins (which I genuinely believe she will), it doesn't end there. Maybe it's just because I come from a country which is significantly more left-leaning, but there are still serious problems in the Democratic Party that need to be addressed. I'm just afraid people will get so caught up in moral superiority that they forget what still needs to be done. Like the liberal elites who refuse to believe their anti-vaccination crusades, or gentrification actually cause serious damage.

Also, it does become dangerous to lump everyone in together. I've heard some people say to hell with trying to mitigate the sorts of circumstances that lead to Trump, but the truth is, not all rural poor people or residents of red states are Trump supporters. You can't just leave them behind, refuse to address the problems that they face just because it might help up some people who are assholes. If that makes any sense? Edit: I have a difficult time believing no one can change, as it runs counter to my personal experience, but does not mean that far-right types should be pandered to.

Is anyone else worried that in 4 years the Republicans will nominated someone with all the same despicable views, but who is actually competent and doesn't act like a cartoon supervillain?

edited 1st Nov '16 4:09:07 PM by Pseudopartition


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