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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#147801: Nov 1st 2016 at 1:52:59 PM

Did anyone say that the DNC should pander to White Supremacy? I sure as hell didn't say that. I'm saying a few things here.

1. Donald Trump's base is not KKK members. He appeals to racist sentiments, and sexist sentiments, and hateful sentiments, but most of his base are everyday people who accept these sentiments because it gives a reason as to why things are the way they are. How do I know this? Because it's the same pattern that helped Bush, Regan, Nixon, Jackson, and basically every other guy in history that ever used fear and distrust as a foundation for a political platform. I also believe that if millions of Americans really are so terrible America has bigger problems to worry about than Donald Trump's 2016 campaign.

2. The present Status Quo is not and should not be seen as permanent.We have had periods in history in which the Republicans have dominated, and periods in history where the Democrats have dominated, because there have been periods in history in which the American public can, for better or for worse, agree that the current Status Quo is actually pretty damn nice, and the ones that don't agree cannot garner enough support to do so. Yes, the DNC definitely could garner the working lower class white citizens, and if not them then definitely their children, if they made steps towards helping many areas in which they are struggling. And if you believe that the youth are already sold to the democratic party then I point to the Baby Boomer generation as a perfect sign of what happens when a generation of young liberal optimists gets brought back down to painful harsh reality.

3. Trump is not an accident, not a mistake, not a glitch, not a work of his own doing, and certainly not a fluke. He will not go away because he loses in a few days. And by "he", I do not mean Donald Trump the man, but the myth of this strong homegrown American man who comes down to save us all from all the terrible things happening to us right now.

Donald Trump has revealed an issue in American politics that goes back for centuries. It reveals that old mold and grime that hasn't yet been washed off yet from the good ol' days of minority oppression, and hate mongering, and that one time we committed actual, politically enforced, genocide. And like any good mold, it cannot be contained or ignored, and certainly not stopped completely. It will grow until either it or everything in its path is destroyed.

edited 1st Nov '16 1:54:57 PM by InAnOdderWay

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#147802: Nov 1st 2016 at 1:53:09 PM

I'm pretty sure most racists aren't willing to accept the label of racist, because the one thing we've done successfully is define the word "racist" as bad, without a good education as to what racism is as evidenced by the fact that people will only accept very explicitly racist things as racist.

By accepting that label, they would in their minds be saying that there's a degree of unfairness or irrationality to their positions, and people obviously don't believe things they don't think are true.

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#147803: Nov 1st 2016 at 1:55:42 PM

John Scalzi's thoughts a week from election day.

But at the end of the day, Clinton’s in the lead in terms of projected electoral vote count and has been for nearly the entire run of the campaign. There would have to be a collapse of historic proportions to change that. Could that happen? It’s a quantum physics universe and anything can happen. But it almost certainly won’t. As Sam Wang of the Princeton Election Consortium has noted, despite all the noise, this election has actually been incredibly stable, and stable in Clinton’s favor.

[up]Racists absolutely hate being called racist and will try to justify their opinions.

edited 1st Nov '16 1:57:25 PM by BearyScary

Do not obey in advance.
InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#147804: Nov 1st 2016 at 1:58:38 PM

[up] Yeah the election's basically sold to Clinton. Despite what the Trump core will say further email leaks will do nothing. At this point I would accept the reanimated face of Richard Nixon surgically grafted onto the back of the cryogenically unfrozen (somehow not decomposed) corpse of Andrew Jackson, because at least they'd be an actual politician and not a glorified celebrity.

[up][up] If everyone was happy and satisfied in life there would be no need for racism. If everyone was equally unsatisfied in life we would not be able to predict concentrations of racism with such startling accuracy.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147805: Nov 1st 2016 at 1:59:15 PM

[up][up][up]You honestly don't get it, do you? That someone doesn't identify as racist and doesn't want to be called racist doesn't stop them from being racist and doesn't make them any more worthy of pandering to. Someone does not have to be a Klan member to agree with the Klan on almost everything.

No one is disputing they are "ordinary Americans", but so what? Ordinary people often hold horrific opinions.

edited 1st Nov '16 2:00:37 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#147806: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:06:29 PM

That goes back to the issue with Clinton's statement about how half of Trump supporters are genuinely hurting, and the other half are deplorable.

The problem here is that there are people who are genuinely hurting and believe Obama is a secret gay Muslim.

So now what?

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#147807: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:08:29 PM

[up][up]Just for clarification's sake, were you referring to me or Odder Way's post above mine? I'm not really sure since the thread moves so fast so arrows can become inaccurate while you're in the middle of writing a post, but I was just elaborating on ironballs' point about how racists see themselves, not really implying that we should be trying to accomodate their desires or anything.

InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#147808: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:12:27 PM

[up][up][up] And should we just accept that? That for some "unknown reason" (that's sarcasm we know exactly why) a massive body of Americans just happen to think that non-whites are filthy subhumans, even though there are plenty of countries that do not have to deal with such an issue. That suddenly Britain just decides that splitting from the EU is a perfectly fine idea and that Muslims are suddenly very much not-okay. That politicians just happen to spring up to support the views that a large group of people happen to hold. That by defeating them in the general elections they definitely will just go away and not just rework the same ideology into a more visitor friendly, less openly hostile form that garners better support from a wider, more stable base in order to spread their ideology to a whole new generation of Americans.

To ironically paraphrase a famous analogy, you don't just see a clock wash up on the beach and assume the tides just put all the gears together as is.

edited 1st Nov '16 2:13:34 PM by InAnOdderWay

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#147809: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:13:16 PM

"You don't have to be consciously or even intentionally racist, for your actions not to have systemically racist consequences."

New Survey coming this weekend!
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147810: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:16:27 PM

[up][up]There is nothing to be done about these people. They've been around in one form or another since the country was founded. They've resisted all efforts to educate them. They've resisted all efforts to better their lives. They insist on voting in people, in fact, who will only make their lives worse.

This is a class of people who consistently vote down measures that would help them. Who demand a return to a past that never existed. These are people who won't go on welfare, because that would be demeaning, yet demand effective state support in the form of things like coal mines being kept open despite no longer serving a useful purpose.

These people have cut their own economic throats, then blame black folks, Hispanics, and women for not stemming the bleeding. If you've got some brilliant plan for outreach to them, I'm all ears—but I'm willing to bet it's been tried before and failed.

edited 1st Nov '16 2:24:30 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#147811: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:18:25 PM

Trump will try and push his justices, but the Senate will likely push towards Democratic this election (unsure about the state of the House), which will make things that much more difficult. So we'll fuck over future generations, but he'll have a tough time trying to create the immediate results his base wants, which will immensely hurt his support among his base.

Given his minority base, if enough Trumpers show up to vote that they outweigh the multiple demographics that make up Clinton's base, it's unlikely that the Dems will take the Senate. In an election this polarized, whoever wins the Presidential election, their voters are also going to be deciding the downticket results.

1. Donald Trump's base is not KKK members.

Well, not all of them. Both the KKK and the Neo-Nazis are in his base, though.

I also believe that if millions of Americans really are so terrible America has bigger problems to worry about than Donald Trump's 2016 campaign.

You're not wrong! Welcome to the United States, where cops shoot black kids in the face for looking at them cock-eyed while hundreds of twenty-something white men shoot up schools, prompting constant, belligerent arguments over the importance of gun accessibility to our nation's soul.

Where we can't even f*cking agree that universal health care is a thing people should have because half of our country thinks poor people deserve to get sick and die.

Where a single CEO can make more money per year than the entire department that works for him and people honestly think he should pay fewer taxes to boot.

Where a significant portion of the country openly worships a symbol of racism, hatred, and rejection of the nation in which they do it, but we can't talk about that because we're too busy discussing how to f*ck the Mexicans.

You are absolutely goddamned right that the United States has bigger problems. Trump is not the cancer eating away at America. He is a symptom of it. But that doesn't mean we can let him go untreated, lest we want to be paralyzed and let it continue rotting away at us.

Racists absolutely hate being called racist and will try to justify their opinions.

Rudy Giuliani: To say that Donald Trump is a racist is outrageous. To call anybody a racist is outrageous.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#147812: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:18:33 PM

These are people who won't go on welfare

No, actually, they gladly take welfare, while lamenting that blacks get the same benefits. Frequently, they are less "willing to work" than the people they aim so much hate at.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#147813: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:22:11 PM

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/desperate-trump-campaign-reduced-to-begging-early-clinton-voters-to-recall-ballots-and-switch/

Desperate Trump campaign reduced to begging early Clinton voters to recall ballots and switch

BRAD REED 01 NOV 2016 AT 13:58 ET

Time is running out for Donald Trump’s presidential campaign, which has now been reduced to asking people who have already voted for Hillary Clinton to recall their ballots and change their votes.

The Wall Street Journal reports that the Trump campaign on Tuesday “launched an effort to encourage people who have already cast ballots for Hillary Clinton to change their minds.” The effort apparently involves “messages on social media targeted to Hillary Clinton supporters who have already cast ballots in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota encouraging them to recall their ballot and vote for Mr. Trump.”

Of course, people who have already voted in this year’s presidential election aren’t the kinds of last-minute deciders who will instantly regret the vote they made once they hear about James Comey sending a letter to Congress about Anthony Weiner’s laptop.

And indeed, Paul Gronke, the director of the Early Voting Information Center at Reed College, tells the Journal that there is “virtually zero evidence that early voters regret their vote” afterward, as most of them have been decided about the race for a long time.

Original reporting comes from the Wall Street Journal, but that one had a paywall.

edited 1st Nov '16 2:23:39 PM by sgamer82

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147814: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:25:56 PM

[up][up]Not a notable improvement there.

InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#147815: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:26:37 PM

[up][up][up][up] If there is nothing to be done then Trump 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. are inevitable, and trust me at least one of them will win and fuck shit up worse than any number of Bernies could fix. If you are not willing to speak the language of the people then what hope do you have to evangelize (I feel like that's some fuck up of famous quote or something)?

If there's a first step it's in actually trying to talk. Right now the Clinton advertising is targeted at the left, and to some degree that the middle of the road. I don't blame them, it's definitely the best option at this point in the game, but it's symbolic of the current state of affairs. But going forward in the future, the DNC could always start by speaking the language of the people. It doesn't mean having to support traditional Christian views, but it does mean taking steps to show that being a Democrat doesn't mean betraying your closest values. It doesn't mean oppressing minorities, it means showing that progress doesn't mean that the old has to be forgotten. It means acknowledging that these are people, and places. It means not treating the entire GOP support group as a burden that needs to be dealt with.

Beyond that, the question gets a hell of a lot harder, because truth be told a lot of these solutions don't really exist yet. But I don't think we're even playing the right sport yet, never mind if we're in the right ballpark of what needs to be done.

edited 1st Nov '16 2:27:05 PM by InAnOdderWay

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#147816: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:28:05 PM

Why is this discussion still going on at this point?

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#147817: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:30:35 PM

[up][up]With many of those points, it's either one path or the other. You can equivocate all you want, but eventually a line in the sand must be drawn.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#147818: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:33:17 PM

[up][up], [up] Eh, I've been dragging it on for just a bit too long anyways.

I'll just say this: History is what happens when people forget history.

Anywho, uh is anyone watching any of the current House/Senate races closely? I know that Trump/Hilary's been getting a lot of (well due) coverage but from what I've heard there are some really interesting things going on there.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#147819: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:35:30 PM

So, my state (Minnesota) has an amendment to the state constitution on the ballot that would remove the state legislature's ability to determine their own salaries, instead having it be decided by a council appointed by the Governor and the Chief Justice of the State Supreme Court (with requirements that half the council come from the same political party as the largest party in the state legislature, and the other half from the second largest party in the legislature).

The amendment can be read here.

I'm honestly not sure what to think about this sort of amendment, and would be glad to hear some opinions.

edited 1st Nov '16 2:48:02 PM by RavenWilder

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147820: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:37:34 PM

@In An Odder Way

All of that has been tried. It really doesn't work.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#147821: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:38:05 PM

The thing is, Democrats might argue, is that Demographics are in their favor, and the people you are asking them to relate to are a shrinking dying segment of the populace.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#147822: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:39:40 PM

[up][up][up] Which party is sponsoring the amendment, that's the acid test. Taking salary determinations away from the state legislators imposes the very real threat that they could have their paychecks withheld if they don't do what the executive branch wants, and that is a serious problem for separation of powers.

More to the point, more "poor" legislators (those who depend on their salary for living expenses as opposed to being independently well-off) are Democrats than are Republicans. You can see where this leads.

The idea that legislators can be docked pay for "not doing their jobs" means that only people who can afford not to get paid those salaries will seek office.

edited 1st Nov '16 2:42:17 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#147823: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:42:25 PM

@In An Odder Way: Exactly. At this point, I'm pretty sure Clinton's going to win, but that doesn't guarantee that we won't get a Trump 2.0 in office after her term(s) is/are up. If anything, this election has been a learning experience. We know that there is still a substantial portion of uneducated, underhelped and undervalued hicks people in rural America that we really should have been paying better attention to ages ago. If we want to at least try to make sure nothing like Trump ever happens again, then we need to address that portion of the population, because like it or not, they're what got Trump onto the ticket. Of course, we can't just tell them that racism and outdated values are OK, but at the very least, we can still fix the various problems and whatnot they're having out there.

And even if we can't help them on a cultural level, we can still let them know that the Dems are not abandoning them, rather than using someone who 'tells it like it is' and does little else as a (un)holy totem on which they can focus their thirst for vengeance upon. Because if we don't do that, then we're gonna' get another Trump. A Trump who has seen just what led to his predecessor's downfall, and knows not to repeat the same mistakes. He would make the actual Trump look like a saint. And that's what we need to be fighting against once this election is over, because if we don't, then may God have mercy on us all.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147824: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:43:54 PM

[up]And once again, this has happened. They actively reject assistance—or demand it be a zero sum game where they get help and the African-Americans/First Nations/Hispanics must be left to suffer.

That's the thing that drives me crazy about the assertion that liberals don't help poor white folks. They try. The poor white folks refuse the assistance and/or insist others must suffer for it to be real assistance. What do you do at that point?

edited 1st Nov '16 2:46:52 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#147825: Nov 1st 2016 at 2:45:37 PM

Ohio, for what it's worth, had no state legislature this year, nor did my county. It was all elected officials, most of whom were Republicans running unopposed. I voted Democrat where I could , and every other time just checked the only box available. I mean, it's not like they were going to lose.

Oh God! Natural light!

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