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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#147601: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:21:58 PM

Not to mention, many NATO members are slowly ratcheting up their military spending towards the required 2%.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#147602: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:22:16 PM

Also as to Comey, besides the Bureaucrat trying to cover his own ass, there's also the very likely possibility everyone's ignored:

He's a Republican. Likely a friend to many establishment Republicans. He doesn't want to be unpersoned by essentially his friends and personal associates after he steps down from the FBI. He likely wants to make sure he gets a job on K Street or in Wall Street or a Conservative Think Tank that is nice and comfortable and cushy and if he doesn't make things hard for Clinton, same said friends will basically go:

"Don't trust Comey, he's a snitch! He went easy on the Democrats!"

Or something to that effect.

The Russian connections are incidental. He wants Trump to win or at least Hillary to not landslide so he has a cushy job lined up for him. lol.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#147603: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:22:18 PM

Because that's how cold wars and deterrence works. We have to always be able and prepared to fight a full war.

The Russians are starting to show us up a bit. They can see our F-22s now.

Oh really when?
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#147604: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:24:44 PM

Thread Hop to answer The Wanted because I know a bit of the technical answer to the "How do we know it's Russia?" question.

The entity that claims responsability for the hacks calls themself/selves "Guciffer 2.0", after the original Gucifer, the hacker who revealed the existance of Clinton's email server (the later having been caught and charged). Examining the material from the DNC leak, the civilian security companies identified signs that were consistant with the hack having been carried out by Russian actors, particularly those known to security experts by the codenames "Fancy Bear" and "Cozy Bear". Evidence includes Russian-language metadata on converted files, the fact that the means to hack the accounts were probably obtained by a Russian-operated spear phishing operation and the fact that Russia's done this sort of thing in other countries before

Plugging "Russia" into Ars Technica's search will probably give you more reading mateiral than you ever wanted.

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#147605: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:30:41 PM

So what is so bad about us spending less on it then?

It'd be good if the US would cut some of its military spending and use that money elsewhere (such as social security, healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc). Certain parts of the US military are already getting more money than the Pentagon requests, which results in bases and equipment that are not used at all. The problem is that representatives in Congress want to increase military spending in their constituency because it creates jobs. When it's time to cut, everyone points at everyone else's constituency and nothing gets cut. That's how it tends to go in the US.

The US does, though, want to maintain a very strong military and extensive capability to deploy anywhere. That's because the US has interests and allies around the world, and sometimes the only way to keep them is by using the military. Sometimes it's even used for good - for instance, the motivation for the intervention in Libya seemed to be respectable, and the Western countries participating in the operation to carry out the UN mandate mostly struck to the perimeters established in the Resolution.

There's also the issue of deterrence. You want a strong military because it's a great deterrent. NATO helps, as well. Sometimes you have to use said military to maintain the deterrent, but there you go.

Oh, and I meant to say: if my last two posts contain information that you didn't already have, I think it's fair to say you probably don't regularly follow international politics or news about military issues. That's fine, of course; it just means this probably isn't one of the main issues on which you'll vote this election. Not everyone can be interested in everything. (And I, of course, am not even an American - I'm just following this from outside. I'm not from a NATO country, either.)

edited 31st Oct '16 4:31:25 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#147606: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:30:41 PM

@Trump and Russia, I'm gonna have to hunt down the article again, but a few months ago there was info floating about that Trump had something close to a billion dollars in real estate deals with Russia that are currently tied up in red tape. It was speculated that his friendliness with them was partly over that; if Trump wins he can use his newfound power to leverage his business deals in Eastern Europe.

edited 31st Oct '16 4:30:48 PM by carbon-mantis

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147607: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:31:59 PM

@The Wanted

The US has the ability to project force in a way that other NATO members do not. Germany and France can defend themselves, but they cannot easily defend Eastern Europe without American logistical support. And no, they cannot simply invent a logistics system to equal that of the USA out of nowhere. It would require totally overhauling the structures of their air forces and navies.

Additionally the larger the alliance is, the greater the deterrent. If the alliance appears to be falling apart, the effectiveness of the deterrent lessens, which increases the chances of Russian meddling in Eastern Europe, and with that, the chances of a direct confrontation between the Russian and NATO militiaries—and with that, it should go without saying, the chances nuclear confrontation.

I don't think this is really a difficult concept to approach.

edited 31st Oct '16 4:33:24 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#147608: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:35:00 PM

if Europe wants to constantly criticize the US they can fend for their own damn selves.

That includes the bits of Europe that are actually pro-US and don't constantly criticise it?

Because that's most of Europe, it's only the far left who actually embody the hipster anti-US ideas you're imagining. Despite what many Americans claim our continent is not dominated by Jill Stein style wackjobs.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147609: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:36:34 PM

Even if it was true it would be a BS notion. The Europeans can criticize the USA all they want—as long as they meet their alliance commitments the US has no grounds to bail on them. There is no NATO clause that states "thou shalt not critique American policy".

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#147610: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:40:23 PM

To be fair, it is a legit criticism of most NATO countries that one of the requirements of membership is spending 2% of GDP on defense, which most member nations fail do to. The only ones that do it are the US, UK, Greece, Poland, and Estonia — that's five out of 28.

edited 31st Oct '16 4:40:31 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#147611: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:46:23 PM

I need to stop watching Secular Talk. Dude just went off and started spewing how Hillary was "evil" because of her votes on Iraq, Patriot act, supposedly in-favor of "deregulating" Wall Street (using ONE bill as an example that didn't even pass), Wall Street speeches etc. And still hasn't done a segment on Jill Stein's ties to fossil fuels.

He's literally the embodiment of EVERYTHING wrong with the far-left.

Like, it's not a tongue in cheek "evil". Like, literally, he was arguing evil as if Hillary is a Villain Protagonist.

New Survey coming this weekend!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#147612: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:55:15 PM

Assuming she wins, it'll be interesting to see if opinions from distraught progressives or whatever change when she doesn't just completely deregulate Wall Street and wage a billion wars.

On a similar note, how is Obama viewed in such circles?

rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#147613: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:00:05 PM

Not really all that better.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#147614: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:00:51 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#147615: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:06:34 PM

This thread sounds increasingly sensationalist....

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#147616: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:06:55 PM

Some of them see Obama as little better than W.

Invalid comparison. Obama is an eloquent speaker. Dubya can't even pronounce the word "nuclear" properly. ("Nuke-yoo-ler!")

edited 31st Oct '16 5:08:13 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#147617: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:07:41 PM

Note that 538 is very conservative in its estimate. They point this out frequently in the podcast(s): their model actually favours Trump and the Republicans this cycle.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#147618: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:10:21 PM

Switching gears a little bit, I'm getting a tad annoyed at pundits calling Comey a "typical" bureaucrat. He violated what is possibly the biggest rule for public servants, you absolute do not interfere in the democratic process. That goes double for senior figures. As an aspiring public servant myself, everything I've learned (be it from school, work or research) has shown me that his actions were in no way typical, let alone acceptable.

[up][up][up]The recent numbers/new "scandal" aren't starting to concern you a bit?

edited 31st Oct '16 5:11:15 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#147619: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:11:17 PM

With the whole "Christians are so oppressed" thing that the Religious Right has in the US, the Synchtube Troper Coven is watching a movie on, well, that particularly modern political issue tomorrow night.

It's God's Not Dead 2. Which, appropriately enough, is a courtroom drama about a teacher getting fired due to bringing up Jesus in a non-proselytizing context in class, and it later going to court. Or to put it another way:

High school history teacher Grace Wesley (Melissa Joan Hart) comes under fire for answering a student's (Hayley Orrantia) question about Jesus. When Grace refuses to apologize, the school board votes to suspend her and threatens to revoke her teaching certificate. Forced to stand trial to save her career, Grace hires young lawyer Tom Endler (Jesse Metcalfe) to defend her in court. Endler devises a powerful strategy to show the jury the historical significance of Wesley's classroom discussion.

So yeah, it's basically a fantasy of the Religious Right. I figured since it's directly related to a major US political issue - albeit one not really talked about by Trump (he's played the whole "stores will say 'Merry Christmas'" angle, but that's it) - it could be fitting to bring it up here.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13456679170A21340100&page=692#17289 is the topic where it's talked about. We're gonna show it Nov 1 at 8 PM EST if anyone wants to jump in the chatroom as it's streamed. No obligation, you could just drop in any time.

edited 31st Oct '16 5:17:35 PM by BonsaiForest

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#147620: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:16:33 PM
Thumped: This post was thumped by moderation to preserve the dignity of the author.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#147621: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:17:12 PM

/glances at 538's senate forecast

The Dems still have a meaningful lead. It's not exactly in the bag, but them getting a majority is still more likely than a tied Senate or a Republican majority.

edited 31st Oct '16 5:17:33 PM by Gilphon

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#147622: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:18:10 PM

Mother Jones has reviewed that report and other memos this former spy wrote. The first memo, based on the former intelligence officer's conversations with Russian sources, noted, "Russian regime has been cultivating, supporting and assisting TRUMP for at least 5 years. Aim, endorsed by PUTIN, has been to encourage splits and divisions in western alliance." It maintained that Trump "and his inner circle have accepted a regular flow of intelligence from the Kremlin, including on his Democratic and other political rivals." It claimed that Russian intelligence had "compromised" Trump during his visits to Moscow and could "blackmail him." It also reported that Russian intelligence had compiled a dossier on Hillary Clinton based on "bugged conversations she had on various visits to Russia and intercepted phone calls."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/veteran-spy-gave-fbi-info-alleging-russian-operation-cultivate-donald-trump

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#147623: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:22:00 PM

Wow. I mean, Russia wanting Trump to win is nothing new, but...

I'm gonna be sceptical on that for the moment though. Wait to see how things develop.

edited 31st Oct '16 5:22:22 PM by Gilphon

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#147624: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:33:12 PM

The lead is tightening guys. It was doing so even before Friday. All Comey's thing did was do it faster. But do not mistake this for Trump winning.

538's numbers are doing everything they can to make sure they account for all possibilities. Even then, he only gets a one in four chance. That is still terrible for him.

And yet the thread is going on about Russia (and I've repeatedly said its being overemphasized in general, what amounts to official trolling being taken instead as the Trumpchurian Candidate) and jumping the gun on Comey.

I frankly find the Donna Brazile thing more worrisome than the bloody emails.

EDIT- I'll wait for more neutral sources.

edited 31st Oct '16 5:33:42 PM by FFShinra

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#147625: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:34:59 PM

LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP!!!!!!! If this isn't treason I don't know what else is. That piece of shit should be in jail and we should start plotting to put a little bit of radium into Putin's coffee. It's better than putting an ICBM into Sochi, which is what he's asking for if he persists in his plots.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

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