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NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#146901: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:04:23 AM

While Mc Mullin winning Utah would be hilarious, isn't he, himself, still far right? Trump is just far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far right.

edited 28th Oct '16 8:04:54 AM by NoName999

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#146902: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:11:21 AM

Mc Mullin is, well, a Mormon. As far as I can tell, a pretty standard Mormon. The Mormons kind of occupy their own niche where they don't like gay marriage and stuff like that, but they're way into helping the poor and homeless.

I would take a Mormon dominated Republican Party because they at least get that compromise sometimes needs to happen, and their beliefs don't consist entirely of outdated toxic ideas. They only have some.

megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#146903: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:12:08 AM

I'm looking at the Upshot right now.

1. The 32 thing is not a lead but rather the estimated probability of a McMullin victory in Utah.

2. 7-9% is not terribly wild for probabilities, especially given how close to the edge (i.e., 0%, which by definition Trump cannot fall below) he is already.

3. That would be an NFL kicker, not the QB. </American Football Fan Mode>

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#146904: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:14:19 AM

McMullin is your stock Republican.

Trump isn't "far right" so much as... well, Alt-Right is a good term in his case. He provides an alternative version of rightism which is more extreme than Republican orthodoxy in some cases and less extreme in others (you lose the relentless homophobia in exchange for increasing bigotry in other fields, namely, and foreign policy priorities also mutate). It's hard to put him on a scale with other Republicans because he doesn't fit the profile. Like, you can say Ted Cruz is further right than Jeb Bush, but that doesn't really fit the model with Trump.

Edit: The Mormon thing is mostly that Mormons really demand that people be "respectable," regardless of the oft-horrible views they can espouse, although to their credit, part of that respectability is being service-oriented. Mostly the Mormon objection is that they find Trump too crass.

edited 28th Oct '16 8:15:53 AM by Ogodei

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#146905: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:29:56 AM

They also have that unfortunate tendency to push religiously motivated legislation. To the point of being Single-Issue Wonk over it. A Mormon representative is better than Trump, but still not someone I'd be happy voting for.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#146906: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:31:38 AM

"The Mormons kind of occupy their own niche where they don't like gay marriage and stuff like that,"

They may be loosening the rules on that.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#146907: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:34:46 AM

I wouldn't even call Trump Alt-right because that would imply he actually cares about the subject matter in some way rather than just doing what he perceives will achieve his goals. If it doesn't feed his ego, he discards it. He's never been particularly loyal to any one political philosophy; he hasn't had to be. That he just naturally falls in line with a toxic subset is a reflection mostly of personality rather than any consistent political ideal he's held. That group feeds his ego, so he selfishly buys into that and not into any group that calls him out on his bullshit.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#146909: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:45:29 AM

I think Mormons are pretty big on religious freedom, and they see the hypocrisy in supporting Trump while he keeps slamming Islam for everything. That's I think why Trump is so unpopular there.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#146910: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:45:34 AM

That's f'd up, man. What's this "Put a n***er behind the trigger" bullshit?
Er ... what?note 
And that makes almost all films and games involving the U.S. Military in the modern day wrong, as they usually show the military being primarily white.
Between my office and next door, we have: 1 white male LT; 1 hispanic male senior chief; 1 black male chief; 5 white males; 3 black males; 1 asian male; 1 hispanic female. This isn't a perfect representation of demographics, but if you discount the officer then white males are ~50%.note 
For a lot of people the military is probably the only way to guarantee any sort of retirement.
And they're changing the retirement system, too.
I would take a Mormon dominated Republican Party because they at least get that compromise sometimes needs to happen, and their beliefs don't consist entirely of outdated toxic ideas. They only have some.
For all the things I dislike about the Mormon church, I second this. They're wrong on several issues I hold dear, but at least they're sane.
Biden is being eyed as Clinton's Secretary of State.
That sounds surprising. Wasn't he talking about getting out of politics with his son dying?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#146911: Oct 28th 2016 at 8:49:56 AM

He was, though being Secretary of State is less overtly political and more policy work than VP. At any rate, the BBC article about this also noted this might well be just a trial balloon leak.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#146912: Oct 28th 2016 at 9:03:02 AM

Edit: The Mormon thing is mostly that Mormons really demand that people be "respectable," regardless of the oft-horrible views they can espouse, although to their credit, part of that respectability is being service-oriented. Mostly the Mormon objection is that they find Trump too crass.

I was raised in a jack mormon household for a lot of my life, and many of my relatives are still in the faith, and this is pretty accurate in my experience.

Trump just does whatever he wants whenever he wants with no regard for anything or anyone, which is a pretty big no-no for them. I don't think the "locker room talk" scandal won him any favors with them either.

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#146913: Oct 28th 2016 at 9:04:21 AM

Meanwhile, a more benign (and funny) form of U.S. election meddling is happening in Denmark. Specifically, bus-side ads telling U.S. citizens living abroad to oppose Trump.

<sings> The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round... [lol]

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#146914: Oct 28th 2016 at 9:13:54 AM

In very bleak looking news those Bundy terrorists who took over Government property with guns got off without even a slap on the wrist.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/oregon_standoff_verdicts_annou.html#incart_big-photo

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#146915: Oct 28th 2016 at 9:41:00 AM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-son-dad-started-conversation-about-obama-birthplace-n673466

    Trump Son: Dad 'Started the Conversation' About Obama Birthplace 
Donald Trump accused Hillary Clinton of starting the birther controversy but Trump's own son praised his dad for "starting the conversation" about where Barack Obama was born.

Eric Trump's comments came during a series of previously unpublished interviews from 2014, in which he and his older brother, Donald Jr., compared him to Winston Churchill, bragged that he was paid $2 million to have dinner with the mother of a construction contractor, and insisted there were "hundreds" of billionaires who would "take a bullet" for the Republican presidential candidate.

Birthers & Media Bias
Asked to explain his father's championing of claims that Obama was foreign-born, and thus ineligible for the presidency, Donald Jr. contended that his birther probe was more of a metaphor for media bias than an actual effort to prove Obama was an illegitimate office-holder.

"Whatever he wants to do, he's earned the right to say it, and frankly, right wrong or indifferent, whether people agree or not, I'm glad that someone actually has the proverbial fortitude — to use a word less vulgar than I'd like to go with it — to actually say, 'I don't care if it's popular,'" Trump Jr. told D'Antonio. "This is what I think."

"When you really break it down," continued Trump Jr., "what he's saying is, 'Hey, this is a guy that's been carried by the media. There are a lot of unanswered questions that anyone else would have to answer and we expect that they answer, and he hasn't for X, Y Z politically correct reason, and I don't believe that.'"

"I think what he's really getting at is, 'Hey, there's a broader picture here in that this guy's been given a, he's playing by a different set of rules or standards than anyone else historically, than anyone who's going to compete against him for the 2012 race.'"

When the biographer suggested that his father's birther campaign offended some voters, Donald Jr. said he understood that it did, but blamed a climate of political correctness. This portion of the conversation was previously reported by Buzzfeed.

"Don't we want politicians to have opinions about things that aren't swayed by public opinion? The problem is that everyone's trying to appease everyone, with 300 million people and every little opinion, and God forbid we offend the one person of the 300 million, and I don't know how you make a decision…I appreciate someone who has the moral conviction to stand by a belief, or even question it.

"What's wrong with questioning something these days? Whether it be political spectrum, across a racial divide, it's increasingly difficult for — and this is coming from, I'm the white privileged son of a rich guy. (laughs) There is a point where I'm not even allowed to have this conversation in America today, which again, I can have it, but it's a no-win proposition for me. It's the proverbial, 'Do you beat your wife?' question: No matter how you answer, if you don't take it far enough, you're a horrible despicable individual, or if you take it too far then you're — it's interesting."

Younger brother Eric credited his father with "starting a conversation" about Obama's birthplace that would not have taken place without him.

"There's always, I think, a moral to the story," he told D'Antonio. "I think with the birthers it's, 'Okay, well, then, just prove it.' Meaning these people are going out saying that which a lot of people were at the time. 'Then just show us. Just be transparent. You're the leader of the free world, be transparent.' There are underlying themes to this, and in fact, he has done his best to start the conversation that was unwilling to be had before. Now that conversation might flush itself out in one of several different ways. But at least the conversation is being had."

President Obama released the short form of his Hawaii birth certificate in 2008 and the long form in April 2012. Earlier in April 2012, Donald Trump announced he had asked investigators to find Obama's birth certificate. Last month, Trump admitted that Obama was born in the U.S. — but repeated his earlier false claim that Clinton had "started the birther controversy."

The $2 Million Dinner
In another passage from the transcripts, Donald Jr. recalled an incident when his father was taking bids from concrete contractors for a job on a Trump property — and one of them made an offer his dad didn't refuse.

"He gets on the phone with one of these guys, and he goes, 'Mr. Trump, I'll take $2 million off my contract — this is an $8 million contract, so it's 20 percent [sic] — 'I'll take $2 million off, but I want something from you. I want you to come have dinner with my mother, with me, at my mom's house.'"

The younger Trump said his father asked the man why he was willing to forego so much money.

According to Eric, the contractor explained to the senior Trump that if he showed up for dinner it would prove to his mom he was successful, that he'd made it. "And of course," said Eric, "[my father] did it. He probably had a great meal…..I was like, 'Wow, that was $2 million.' I don't care who you are. No one is going to get that nod.'"

Trump Jr. did not identify the contractor and D'Antonio said he did not know the identity of the man. The Trump campaign did not immediately respond to a request for more information about the incident.

Television's "Number One" Show
Eric Trump said that his father believes what he says about his businesses, even when it's not factually accurate.

"When you talk about, let's call it hyperbole — he's not doing it to create faux demand," he told D'Antonio. "He really believes that these things that he's creating — and that he spends seven hours debating over where to put a palm tree on a golf course — he really believes that these things are the greatest within that market…his passion is so real, and so there, that it's not hyperbole. He genuinely believes that this is what it is and the efforts that he's put in, it is what it is."

"We never stop dumping money into our properties and that's why they're always…you can go into — and I urge you to do this — if you go out and see our property in Las Vegas or Chicago, walk into one of the mechanical rooms," he told D'Antonio. "You could eat off the floor."

D'Antonio asked about Trump's previous claims that his reality show "The Apprentice" was the most popular show on television.

"He was proclaiming that 'The Apprentice' was the number one show when it was like number 73," D'Antonio said. "What is that?"

"He still looks at it as being number-one," Trump's son replied. "He looks at it as the best. He compares it to other shows that have been really hot, and perhaps exceeded that, but three seasons later and they're out. They're flashes in the pan. He looks at the show and says, 'It's still getting renewed.' And because of the sponsorship dollars, it's still making the most money of all of these other shows. A, it's a reality show, so the cost side is limited; B, because of the product placement that he's been able to do, he's getting a lot.

"And he's able to say, 'No other show can compete with this,'" the younger Trump said.

"As a business it IS the number-one show. So he knows there's something ahead of it in the ratings that week or that hour, but it's still very dominant. It's a force."

Bullets and Billionaires
Eric Trump acknowledged that his father can be a polarizing figure, but said that throughout history that's been a common theme among great political leaders and captains of industry.

Citing the success of "The Apprentice," Eric wondered aloud, "What is it that makes incredible men and women, what is it that makes people fascinated by incredible figureheads across history? Look at Rockefeller. Look at Carnegie. Look at J.P. Morgan. Look at Teddy Roosevelt. What causes that? These guys were all larger than life. Look at Churchill. Some of these guys weren't the most politically correct, but people loved them for some reason and they were interested in them. They were fascinated by them. I think in most cases, people were actually also jealous of them.

"I think there's a tremendous amount of jealousy."

Still, he explained, "I also think there's a tremendous amount of billionaires who — I can go through my contacts and his and I can count hundreds off the top of my head — who would take a bullet for him and our family."

The Trump campaign did not immediately respond to a request for the names of those billionaires.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#146916: Oct 28th 2016 at 9:58:59 AM

[up][up] Again, I gotta take issue with that description of the Bundy group. All they really did was stage a sit-in on (unused) government land. That they brought guns with them changes the tone of the whole enterprise, yes, but it's not fundamentally different from many other peaceful protests.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#146918: Oct 28th 2016 at 10:03:48 AM

One was shot in the altercation with police that led to the arrest of the ringleaders. The remaining holdouts surrendered shortly thereafter.

If armed insurrection isn't worth a prison sentence, then I don't know what is. I'd love to see the jury questionnaires in that case. wild mass guess"Do you believe that the Federal government is legitimate?" "Do you recognize the right of the U.S. government to own land and evict trespassers?" A "yes" to either gets you dismissed...

edited 28th Oct '16 10:05:45 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#146919: Oct 28th 2016 at 10:18:46 AM

@Raven W Ilder: The group has made numerous threats against anyone coming to evict them. I'd say threatening the lives of government workers is considered terrorist threats.

You just know none of them would have gotten away with this had they not been white.

edited 28th Oct '16 10:19:52 AM by Wildcard

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#146920: Oct 28th 2016 at 10:21:22 AM

Just saw a notification on Reuters that the Clinton email investigation is being reopened. Nothing more than that at the moment

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#146921: Oct 28th 2016 at 10:21:38 AM

[up][up]Well, probably, but that's not a reason to not let this guys go. Saying "other people would have been treated less fairly" isn't a reason to treat everyone less fairly. Assuming you think them getting off is unfair, of course.

edited 28th Oct '16 10:22:00 AM by LSBK

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#146922: Oct 28th 2016 at 10:22:17 AM

@ Fighteer:

If armed insurrection isn't worth a prison sentence, then I don't know what is.

Mind you, it's still a failure for them. If they can't even manage to go to Prison for what they've done, when what they expected was to die in a hail of bullets...

edited 28th Oct '16 10:22:44 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Tacitus Since: Jan, 2001
#146923: Oct 28th 2016 at 10:22:30 AM

FBI reviewing new Clinton emails. Great.

At this point I don't care if they throw her in prison or whatever, just so long as they do it after Trump loses the election.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#146924: Oct 28th 2016 at 10:23:10 AM

The militia threatened anyone who came near the refuge, and stalked government employees. And bringing assault rifles means that your protest has become an occupation.

I doubt the email investigation will be completed, or make any public progress, in 11 days.

edited 28th Oct '16 10:24:50 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#146925: Oct 28th 2016 at 10:25:39 AM

@LSBK: Treating them fairly would have gotten them a long prison sentence. They shouldn't of been handled with special gloves for threatening lives just because they were white rural people. Anyone else would have been treated fairly, (as in forced to do the time for their crimes against the state, the taxpayers, all the people they threatened the lives of) so they should be given justice as well. Yes, them getting off is unfair as anything.

edited 28th Oct '16 10:27:39 AM by Wildcard


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