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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#146526: Oct 26th 2016 at 7:13:19 AM

Haven't the Bushes really mellowed out during the Obama years? I'd read something about HW Bush telling fellow Republicans to calm their collective tits regarding LGBT marriage equality.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#146527: Oct 26th 2016 at 7:16:08 AM

The Bush family is a study in rich dilettantes riding their party's coattails into political office and doing jack all of value while there. It's entirely possible that they have private opinions that break from their party's doctrine, but the fact that they bury them when running or governing is not a mark in their favor.

George W. Bush was such a political non-entity that he essentially allowed his doctrine to be dictated by his advisers, and they damn well knew it, which is what gave Dick Cheney the opportunity he sought to push his pro-war agenda. When Jeb! began his run, with the clear assumption that he'd coast into office as heir to the Bush dynasty, he hired most of his brother's advisers: the same people who cut taxes, slashed regulations, drove us into unjustified (and unfunded) wars, pushed torture, the whole routine.

It's just impossible to have respect for them, even if the political winds have blown them towards more sensible ideology in recent years.


Edit: Ugh, Colbert. Stop playing the centrist game and do your research! He called out the increase in health insurance premiums in 2017 as an example of "Obamacare failing", but completely omitted the fact that subsidies also increase, canceling the cost for most recipients. Dammit, son, you are a scion of Jon Stewart who would not let that bullshit pass.

edited 26th Oct '16 8:13:22 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#146528: Oct 26th 2016 at 7:28:39 AM

A lot of folks don't qualifiy for those subsidies though. A lot of people did see their premiums rise. It's just that they're middle-class families that can generally take the financial hit. Recall though, that it once used to be possible for a single full-time worker to raise a family alone. Nowadays people who want them are too scared for their financial situation to have kids, etc.

Every little bit matters. And there are lots of little bits. So I could understand how someone like Colbert would see rising premiums as a "failure".

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#146529: Oct 26th 2016 at 7:33:27 AM

Isn't that partially driven by the lack of Medicaid subsidies which forces insurance companies to pick up the slack?

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#146530: Oct 26th 2016 at 7:37:23 AM

'''Eschaton: re: Nixon Library debate, I'm very curious to hear how that went. Especially because, as it so happens, I'm actually doing an internship there (although I wasn't there tonight).

This was the event in question. I went there as part of a college field trip.

I sort of busy right now, so I'll keep it short: the debate has done much to reaffirm my faith in humanity, as not only did various members of the audience - which ironically comprised mostly of middle-aged and elderly folk than the millennials the debate revolved around - prove to be more fervent and conservative than the Republican debaters (the panel consisted of two Democrats, two Republicans, and one Libertarian), but one Republican and the Libertarian repeatedly complimented each other and agreed on things. [lol]

The most interesting thing was that the Republican debaters, seemingly aware of the toxicity of the very name "Donald Trump", avoided mentioning him whenever possible and focused more on the issues of his policy proposals instead. Their general thesis was essentially: "Trump's proposals are downright infeasible, but the instincts behind them had some ground." Meanwhile, the Democrats went with: "Trump and the Republicans' instincts behind their proposals have some ground, but that shouldn't give any degree of legitimacy to their ideas."

None of the debaters were female however, which I noticed led to sex and gender issues being almost completely overlooked.

edited 26th Oct '16 7:41:27 AM by FluffyMcChicken

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#146531: Oct 26th 2016 at 8:48:12 AM

I'm sorry, Fighteer, but you are making excuses. So long as there is a major political party who is dedicated to repealing Obamacare and they have the majority representation in both Congress and the state Congresses, then it is going to be dismantled, one way or another, unfortunately. Yes, people can vote Democrat all the time, but that does not change the fact that the Republicans are still a major political party and thus still have political power. Hopefully, Trump's loss will lead to the Republicans returning to sanity and becoming a more moderate party or the Republicans becoming irrelevant, but that has yet to happen.

edited 26th Oct '16 8:54:34 AM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#146532: Oct 26th 2016 at 8:50:52 AM

If the GOP disappears, do you think we'll have a new split along Federalist/State-ist lines? Or will it be Liberal/Socialist?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#146533: Oct 26th 2016 at 8:51:19 AM

You guys who are talking about the impossibility of a Jill Stein vs. Jeb Bush contest are missing Jack's point, which I think is a valid one.

Trump supporters who believe that the Court is all and that there might be a chance of overturning Roe v. Wade, for example, would literally elect Louis Cypher over Hillary if Ol' Scratch was running as a Republican, because his appointments to the Supreme Court would be "justices who adhere to the original meaning of the Constitution."

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#146534: Oct 26th 2016 at 8:54:04 AM

[up][up][up] I have no idea why you felt the need to make that rant at me. Yes, obviously, defending (and improving) Obamacare is a critical agenda item for Democrats over the next four to eight years. As long as there is a Democrat in the White House (and there isn't a veto-proof Republican majority in Congress), we aren't going to see a repeal pass. We may, however, see obstructionist ideology blocking attempts to resolve any problems with the program, and/or state governments continuing to try to tear it down.

[up][up] If the GOP splits, it'll be between the fiscal hawks — the plutocrats who believe in worshiping the rich/free market and fighting wars at the nation's expense, and the Know-Nothing evangelical/racist wing — the folks who vote for people like Trump and Palin.

[up] Jack doesn't have "points"; he gets weird ideas in his head and freaks out over them, then makes everyone debate him for page after page. The idea of a Stein v. Bush race is ludicrous, but were it to happen, I would vote for Stein partially out of fear of what Republicans would do to the Supreme Court if they got in power. Stein would almost certainly lose that battle, though.

edited 26th Oct '16 9:01:09 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#146535: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:14:00 AM

I think Jacko was trying to say that's what the "other" Trump supporters are doing right now. Only in the opposite direction.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#146536: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:15:44 AM

[up][up][up]In order for a Bush v Stein to realistically happen, there would had to been a MAJOR hard left in the country. Which pulled the Dems considerably left and the GOP to the center left.

Which would be fucking great to be honest.

edited 26th Oct '16 9:16:02 AM by NoName999

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#146537: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:16:02 AM

[up][up]Oh. Well, I think they're wrong, and they think they're right, and there's more of us (according to the polls). Isn't that what democracy is fundamentally about?

edited 26th Oct '16 9:23:54 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#146538: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:24:49 AM

I meant if the GOP disappears and the Democrats split.

A split GOP would be a fine thing, but patricians and plutocrats by definition struggle with gaining an electorate without latching to a cause that appeals to the plebeians, like "national identity", "family values", "self-reliance", "religion", and so on, and twisting it to their advantage.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#146539: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:29:11 AM

The whole self-reliant thing makes me headdesk so hard.

Yes, the literal most community-dependent species in the entire damned world, whose success comes from the strength of its communities

is going to champion self-reliance as its ideal.

What

the

Fuck.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#146540: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:34:40 AM

Learn2Bear

edited 26th Oct '16 9:43:04 AM by Clarste

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#146542: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:38:09 AM

Did I literally just watch someone's point fly over Fighteer's head until I explained it.

It was like watching Bruce Lee lose a fight.

[up] That was It's Personal levels of angry. I've never seen Fighteer get angry before. Ornery, perhaps, but not quite so scary.

edited 26th Oct '16 9:39:15 AM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#146543: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:38:31 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] What that would probably look like is a centrist, broadly conservative party consisting of moderate Dems and Reps who are basically looking out for Mr. Baggy Wallet, and some populist parties consisting of radically opposed anti-establishment ideologies, whose members all share the feeling that they have been shafted by The Man.

[up] Eh, I'm distracted by work. Sorry if I missed something. And what did I say that was so angry?

edited 26th Oct '16 9:39:45 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#146544: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:41:51 AM

Haven't the Bushes really mellowed out during the Obama years? I'd read something about HW Bush telling fellow Republicans to calm their collective tits regarding LGBT marriage equality.

I think HW Bush has never quite fit in with the Republican party since the days when the Reagan coalition really came together and solidified. He was Reagan's opponent in the primary and had famously decried Reagan's economic policy as "voodoo economics" before losing the primary to Reagan and being made VP to make sure of party unity. He was a classic Northeastern Republican, who didn't really work with the southern, highly religious, culture war motivated Republicans that came to dominate the party in the following decades.

He's probably still a Wall St./Cold Warrior Republican, but I doubt he was ever really on board with the culture war aspect of modern Republicans, and he was willing to buck the dogma established by Reagan, Norquist, and Laffer that lowering taxes and deregulating was always the way to improve the economy. (Gingrich launched himself to notoriety by mutinying over Bush Senior's decision to raise taxes to pay for the Gulf War and tried to challenge him on it, which raised Gingrich's profile and left him as a controlling force in the House just a few years afterward during the first Clinton midterm election.)

As I've seen said a few times, the bad thing about H. W. Bush was that he was an icy, pro-America imperialist. The good thing about Bush... was that he was an icy, pro-America imperialist. He didn't have the inclination to get involved in grand crusades the way his idiot son did.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#146546: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:43:42 AM

Were we looking at a Bush v Stein situation, and we were seeing the Stein we're seeing this election cycle, I'd probably end up towards Bush.

Rightly or wrongly, between those two Bush would more likely than not seem the more competent and level headed candidate and, again rightly or wrongly, I find that feeling that my Executive leader can actually govern, even if I'm not 100% in line with their policies, is more important than anything else.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#146547: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:44:15 AM

Donald Trump: Hillary Clinton 'personally ordered' Donald Duck to stalk me

So not only is Hillary a devout defender of bunnies, but she also commands an army of beloved cartoon icons who support and respect her? Holy shit, you guys. She's a Disney Princess.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#146548: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:44:35 AM

The whole self-reliant thing makes me headdesk so hard. Yes, the literal most community-dependent species in the entire damned world, whose success comes from the strength of its communities is going to champion self-reliance as its ideal. What the Fuck.
Transhumanist tech may change that, though probably not in my lifetime.

But anyways, self-affirmation is more practical for living life well, given our current evolutionary state. Though I get the appeal of (somehow) living a rich and unharrowing life outside the trappings of civilization/society.

edited 26th Oct '16 9:54:49 AM by nervmeister

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#146549: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:53:23 AM

I apologize, Fighteer. It's just that this election has frustrated me more than others, since it seems like politics are unavoidable with this one. It does not help that I am a Democrat in a deep red Southern state. I have to deal with being the Only Sane Man in a land of Trump supporters.

edited 26th Oct '16 10:16:08 AM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#146550: Oct 26th 2016 at 9:57:14 AM

In Stien v Bush I'd probably also go Bush (or sit out given my history) and hope for moderate SC nominees. Stein borders on a Trump level of unqualified.

edited 26th Oct '16 9:58:04 AM by Elle


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