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TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#146376: Oct 24th 2016 at 9:27:17 PM

And to make matters worse because liberals like to eat each other they decided in their infinite fucking wisdom not to show up for the 2010 midterms because Obama magically didn't change the country over night and we got fucked hard, with the influx of the Tea Party.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#146377: Oct 24th 2016 at 9:50:22 PM

"But I wish some governments were above cherry-picking measures that only please their base, and also tried to improve the life of those who don't vote for them.

Saying "we don't help you because you don't like us", how to put it...it's not the right mindset for someone who is in charge of a country IMO."

There's nothing you can do to help these people because the one thing they want — unequivocal support of their industry — is economically and environmentally unacceptable and will never happen. Coal is dead and the energy industry has moved on to literally everything else. There comes a time when you have to ignore these decrepit and ignorant people. Their demands are stupid, and their vote is, quite honestly, unnecessary. West Virginia has hardly any people, and their electoral vote count is abysmal. And when there are measures which could help them, they vote against them — basic income, education subsidies, healthcare subsidies, what have you.

edited 24th Oct '16 9:53:08 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#146378: Oct 24th 2016 at 10:32:22 PM

On Coal, didn't Clinton push for a plan that would include help in reconversion and diversification? IIRC she said stuff the likes of "if we're closing coal mines, we need to provide other jobs" (whereas Trump just says keep the coal mines open)

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#146379: Oct 24th 2016 at 10:40:51 PM

And when there are measures which could help them, they vote against them — basic income, education subsidies, healthcare subsidies, what have you.

Oh but I know, but that's not the reason they vote against that. As this election proved, there is quite a huge fracture between the Republican voters and the elected Republicans, which explains in part why a ludicrous outsider got a shot at the White House. I would rather blame the GOP for twisting the "liberal" measures that would help their voter base so that they can ensure they stay angry at the wrong people for their issues.

I mean, Medinoc can concur that we got the same at home. The right-wing voters both include upper class people from where almost the entirety of the Les Républicains party comes from, but also people living in rural and/or remote areas, that aren't particularly rich and don't care about the economic agenda - but they vote on the right for security, or tradition.

edited 24th Oct '16 10:45:01 PM by Julep

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#146380: Oct 24th 2016 at 10:44:06 PM

[up] There's a picture out there which I can't hotlink to here that depicts a stereotypical redneck claiming he votes Republican to keep minorities, women, immigrants, liberals, etc. from ruining his life. Next to him is a rich old man holding a huge sack of money claiming he votes Republican to keep morons like the guy next to him from realizing that he is the one who is really ruining their lives.

edited 24th Oct '16 10:44:33 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#146381: Oct 24th 2016 at 11:02:30 PM

There's nothing you can do to help these people because the one thing they want — unequivocal support of their industry — is economically and environmentally unacceptable and will never happen. Coal is dead and the energy industry has moved on to literally everything else. There comes a time when you have to ignore these decrepit and ignorant people. Their demands are stupid, and their vote is, quite honestly, unnecessary. West Virginia has hardly any people, and their electoral vote count is abysmal. And when there are measures which could help them, they vote against them — basic income, education subsidies, healthcare subsidies, what have you.

What you're advocating for is hard utilitarianism, for better or for worse.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#146382: Oct 24th 2016 at 11:37:00 PM

I have to say, the sentiment expressed in this thread (and summarized [up]) is disturbing. It's like Romney's 47% comment all over again. As Julep said, a president has to take care of everyone, even the people who refuse help. You can't just write off people because they've been tricked into voting against their best interests. I don't care if it's a million people or one. A president should understand that they represent these people as well.

Now that doesn't mean helping these people is easy, and it doesn't mean you should support impossibly regressive policies like bringing back coal. But you can still help these people in a few ways (we've mentioned some of them already). You just have to accept that sometimes people will yell at the doctor giving them medicine.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#146383: Oct 25th 2016 at 12:44:30 AM

There is a lot of middle ground between "Do what they want!" and "Ignore them to die".

And it is the government's job to find and provide it. Doesn't matter if they voted for the other guy.

The people are not to blame, they are victims. To blame are the politicians who use the for votes and then shoot them in the back in betrayal.

They are failing their charge.

"You can reply to this Message!"
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#146384: Oct 25th 2016 at 2:11:55 AM

Sometimes, the best way to help someone involves making them suffer. This is how it is with weaning addicts off their drugs; they'll suffer considerably from withdrawal, but ultimately they'll be better off as long as you manage the process reasonably and competently.

Similarly, people need to be weaned off the coal industry, even if they'll suffer in the short term for it.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#146385: Oct 25th 2016 at 2:40:19 AM

[up] Which is more or less what HRC wants to try, as Medinoc pointed out.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#146386: Oct 25th 2016 at 2:41:18 AM

Who exactly is advocating for leaving coal miners to rot? HRC specifically said when asked the energy question in the second debate that she wants to provide new job training and other programs for coal miners and the like. Two or three times she said something to the effect of "it is unacceptable to leave the people who powered our country for decades behind as we move forward with new energy sources."

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#146387: Oct 25th 2016 at 2:47:16 AM

Who exactly is advocating for leaving coal miners to rot?
HRC is, according to the GOP's imagination. And coal miners eat it up.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#146388: Oct 25th 2016 at 3:35:46 AM

At what point do we say "okay, we've tried explaining x amount of times in y amount of ways and they STILL aren't getting it" do we just say fuck it and drag them kicking and screaming into 21st century?

New Survey coming this weekend!
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#146389: Oct 25th 2016 at 4:56:55 AM

We will be reading one of five of these stories on November 9th. The lsst one is nightmare fuel but the others are varying degrees of okay to awesome.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/youll-likely-be-reading-one-of-these-5-articles-the-day-after-the-election/

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#146390: Oct 25th 2016 at 5:42:05 AM

At best Trump voters are being willfully ignorant. A vote for Trump is a vote that says "racism, sexual assault, and other bigotry are not problems in the United States today."

I get that many Republicans have their reasons. They might not be good reasons, but they're reasons. But good-hearted Republicans should not ignore what this election has become about: not about any issues, but about the deplorable views still held by too many Americans, about standing up and rejecting them.

thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#146391: Oct 25th 2016 at 5:52:03 AM

A certain percentage of the GOP really does believe those things are solved. Remember their tweet on MLK day thanking him for solving racism? How many say they agree with second wave feminists but the current group goes too far? I don't hate black people I just hate black culture, etc, etc.

@coal solutions: I'm not so sure coal towns can be saved outside of a basic income. My hometown made conscious choices to diversify right around the end of WW 2 when things were booming and we had the money to do so. Diversifying ain't cheap and the industries available are different from back in the day.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
Shippudentimes Since: Dec, 2012
#146392: Oct 25th 2016 at 5:59:47 AM

The NY Times recently updated their backlog of Trump's Twitter insults that they've been keeping track of since January 28th, 2016. Surprise, surprise, the biggest whipping boy/girl of his "insults" are Hillary, the NY Times, Jeb Bush, Bernie Sanders, Megyn Kelley, the mainstream media, Marco Rubio, CNN, Fox News, and... ...Major League Baseball?

megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#146393: Oct 25th 2016 at 6:06:21 AM

Probably complained it had gotten boring (baseball games have been getting longer and longer of late). Then again, he also called the NFL wussies re concussions.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Shippudentimes Since: Dec, 2012
#146394: Oct 25th 2016 at 6:09:28 AM

[up] Actually,

@realDonaldTrump: Can't believe Major League Baseball just rejected @PeteRose_14 for the Hall of Fame. He's paid the price. So ridiculous - let him in! - 14 Dec 2015

edited 25th Oct '16 7:10:18 AM by Shippudentimes

megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#146395: Oct 25th 2016 at 6:13:22 AM

What do you mean, "just"? Rose has been banned since '89.

EDIT: Unless that was over Manfred denying the appeal.

edited 25th Oct '16 6:16:28 AM by megarockman

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#146396: Oct 25th 2016 at 6:22:30 AM

Minimum basic income plus single-payer healthcare really are the best ways to help the poor Appalachian coal towns (and other similarly disadvantaged rural and semi-rural areas), but the political paradigm in which they are immersed thanks to right-wing propaganda ensures that they'll never support candidates who will push for those things. As usual, the Republican circle-jerk keeps them ignorant and bigoted enough to reject people who will actually help them, instead of pandering to them for votes and then leaving them to rot.

Which is not to say that MBI and single-payer are universally popular among Democrats, either. Unfortunately, the centrist approach is the wrong one to take, here, which is part of what leads such disadvantaged folks to call for revolutionary change. Donald Trump is not going to do jack to help them, though.

edited 25th Oct '16 6:24:35 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#146397: Oct 25th 2016 at 6:25:03 AM

I have to say, the sentiment expressed in this thread (and summarized [up]) is disturbing. It's like Romney's 47% comment all over again. As Julep said, a president has to take care of everyone, even the people who refuse help. You can't just write off people because they've been tricked into voting against their best interests. I don't care if it's a million people or one. A president should understand that they represent these people as well. Now that doesn't mean helping these people is easy, and it doesn't mean you should support impossibly regressive policies like bringing back coal. But you can still help these people in a few ways (we've mentioned some of them already). You just have to accept that sometimes people will yell at the doctor giving them medicine.

I don't think anyone is advocating to screw over these people or write them off, (well, maybe one or two people might kinda be, although I'll put that down to cathartic venting) I think they're just acknowledging the reality that there isn't much that can be done to help them. Simply put, it's doubtful that liberals will ever have enough of a hold on either federal or local government to help these people. If we could do that we'd gladly hep them as best we can, but they're fighting us tooth and nail on so many fronts that the best we can do is try to do the right thing where we can, hope it does actually help them in some backdoor ways, and move on.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#146398: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:01:57 AM

The Pete Rose thing is probably the only thing that I'll ever sort-of agree with Trump on, mainly because I find a lifetime ban from the sport for gambling with it to be ridiculous, in comparison to far worse offenses that can and have been committed. Granted, I have no real respect for Pete Rose either (he's a egomaniac himself), but I'd prefer to be reasonable.

As the saying goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

edited 25th Oct '16 8:02:57 AM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#146399: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:03:41 AM

And its a particularly busted clock that's right about sports (maybe) once yet wants to be the most powerful man on Earth.

edited 25th Oct '16 8:04:01 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#146400: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:14:18 AM

Wait, Pete Rose is relevant, now? I suddenly had a flashback and thought we were in the nineties again.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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