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KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#145951: Oct 22nd 2016 at 7:53:48 PM

@Best Of: "Muslim-American" isn't really a term I'd use, but I don't know if I'd say it's inappropriate for what you're referring to. You'd probably have to ask someone who fits into that category how they'd feel about that.

Also, on the "Jewish-American" comparison - I think that is an ethnicity, actually? I'm not entirely certain - again, you'd have to ask someone.

Oh God! Natural light!
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#145952: Oct 22nd 2016 at 7:56:54 PM

Jewishness is indeed an ethnicity, kind of. It's not the same as being a person of color, but it isn't the same as being white either.

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#145953: Oct 22nd 2016 at 7:57:39 PM

@Best Of: When I was a kid, my parents voted at a local church with punch cards. When I voted for the first time in 2008 (I turned 18 and eligible to vote two days after the '04 election -_-), it was at a local high school gymnasium, and I believe they were still using punch cards then, too. I had to check in at a table staffed by official volunteers with my identification to get my ballot, then took it into a tiny cubicle to fill it out and dropped it in lockbox on my way out (and got a congratulatory air-five from the old man who'd checked me in and I told it was my first time :P ).

However, my state (Washington) switched to mail in ballots after that, so I've voted by mail ever since. My ballot just arrived a couple days ago, in fact. It's a double-sided form where you fill in bubbles with a pen, like a multiple choice test. It starts with state-wide initiatives, then goes on to elected officials in descending order of importance, and finishes with local ballot initiatives.

When I'm done, I seal it in one envelope, seal that envelope in another envelope, and either mail it or take it to one of many ballot drop boxes around town. The one I usually use is in the parking lot at a church a few blocks away. The boxes are open from as soon as you get your ballot until 8 pm on election day.

This is said ballot and envelopes. And no, HRC didn't come pre-marked. :P I marked that one as soon as I opened the envelope because I don't have to do a second of additional research before I make a choice for it.

^ I hear it's like trying to explain Final Fantasy 8 to a lemon.

edited 22nd Oct '16 7:59:11 PM by Wryte

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#145954: Oct 22nd 2016 at 7:59:56 PM

[up][up] I mean, I do know some people who identify as both Jewish and white, but I suppose ethnicities aren't mutually exclusive.

Oh God! Natural light!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#145955: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:04:33 PM

I mean, who is and isn't white has changed over time. Italian and Irish people used to not be white and now they are. Meanwhile Arabs used to be consider white in the United States and they aren't anymore.

It goes with race being a social construct thing. Ethnicity on the other hand, is a different story.

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:05:06 PM by LSBK

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#145956: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:06:15 PM

Remember Jorge Ramos, the anchor at Univision who was thrown out of a Trump rally and was soon after told, "Get out of my country" by a supporter? He made a documentary called Hate Rising, and in it he interviewed the KKK and other hate groups. The guy's got balls, and I applaud him for putting himself in harm's way to expose that, yes, this crap HAS gotten worse because of this election.

And sadly, the hate won't go away even if Hillary wins.

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:06:55 PM by speedyboris

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#145957: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:08:22 PM

I've read quite a lot about voter fraud in the US, and the information that's mentioned the most in all serious studies about it is that it's not significant. It's so rare that it barely matters.

I used to think voter fraud might be a problem. In the opposite direction most people think, but still. Then my Social Studies teacher showed me the statistics. The total number of incidents of voter fraud on the national level is less than the margin of error for my home city's vote tallies. So, yeah. Even saying it "barely matters" feels disingenuous to me.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#145958: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:10:41 PM

Yes, Jewish is actually an ethnicity as well as a religion. I was comparing "Jewish-American" to "Muslim-American" in the sense that both are religions, but of course I should have remembered - because I definitely did know it - that if you're Jewish by religion you're just about certainly also Jewish by ethnicity. (Women can convert to Judaism and men, traditionally, cannot; and you can be a nonreligious Jew, as most Jews probably are these days. The term for that is "non-practicing Jew", where "practice" refers to active participation in the religious tradition. I suppose I must add that you can also not participate in the tradition but still believe in the religious doctrine, so not all non-practicing Jews are irreligious.)

Still, "Baptist-American", "Hindu-American", "Scientologist-American" - you wouldn't do it with other religions. It seems to be only "Muslim-American". (Well, and, as you rightly pointed out, "Jewish-American" because of the ethnicity aspect of it, but not because it's a religion.)

At university my major is "English language and culture", where the last part of the phrase means the cultures of English-speaking countries. I have some American professors, and one I had for many years (he's retired now) is a Jew. All of the professors, in addition to doing the basics of their field, also offer courses on the stuff they've specialised in, and this particular professor held many courses, which I took, about various American ethnicities that overlap with "white", including Jewish. I've actually passed a course on Judaism in American literature. (All of the works were by American Jews and specifically about Judaism in America.)

Because of this - and, well, popcultural osmosis - I know that Jews sort of are and aren't "white". These days it doesn't usually matter as much as it used to, but there was a time when people had a sort of internalised conception of a system of degrees of whiteness, where a British or German person was more "white" than someone from Italy - or, indeed, a Jew from any country. (Of course, this is a simplification.) That's where the idea of "WASP" - "White Anglo-Saxon Protestant" - comes from. You're not really white - according to what actually used to be the basis of policies about quotas for immigrants from different regions - if you're Catholic.

Well, as I said, almost nobody thinks like that anymore. These days you're generally considered white if you look white and "non-Hispanic", which is the term you see in demographic breakdowns of all kinds. I think Jews are still othered by some groups of whites, but not most. (And of course - needless to say, I should hope - this whole idea of paying all this attention on how "white" you are and basing your social standing and value of that is one of the worst things that humans have ever invented.)

Even saying it "barely matters" feels disingenuous to me.

I've seen the figures, as well, and I completely agree. I was conceding too much.

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:13:04 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#145959: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:14:38 PM

[up] North Asians and a good chunk of Western Asians are also generally white, though they are considered different from Northern Americans and Europeans (Probably due to mostly being Muslims or Jews in the case of Western Asia).

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:15:52 PM by Bat178

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#145960: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:19:09 PM

White people used assimilation to make sure they stayed the majority. Otherwise a WASP would've been outnumbered by various white "minorities".

Why do you think the Irish stopped being discriminated against?

New Survey coming this weekend!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#145961: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:20:06 PM

I doubt that was the actual point, but it's more or less what happened.

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#145962: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:20:53 PM

As you can see I know next to nothing about the actual practices of a US election.

The specifics of the election will very dramatically from place to place. But if you want to hear another anecdote, I live in California, and I voted today. I'm registered as a permanent vote by mail voter, so a couple weeks before each election, I get a ballot in the mail. You just fill it out, put it in the envelope provided, and drop it off in any mailbox or various other drop off locations. It's really easy.

As far as ID, I think I had to provide my social security number when I registered to vote, but apart from that, I don't recall needing any sort of ID.

I think there can also be specific legislation on the ballot, decided by popular vote? How does that work?

That depends on the state, but California is notorious for ballot propositions. This year we had 17 statewide ballot propositions! There were also 4 local ballot measures where I live. They aren't any different than voting for offices - it's just another entry on the ballot, and you can either choose yes or no.

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:23:46 PM by storyyeller

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#145963: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:25:31 PM

North Asians and a good chunk of Western Asians are also generally white, though they are considered different from Northern Americans and Europeans

I'm Finnish, and in the American immigration quotas we used to be considered "Mongolian" (presumably because the Sami people, indigenous to this region, are - and look - more Asian than most European peoples). Most Finns are about as white as Jim Carrey - myself included. If I was American I'd be viewed as white, no question. (My family are part of Finland's majority religion, which is Lutheran - so by my religious background I'm even a Protestant, although I'm actually an atheist. I'm not Anglo-Saxon, though - if you saw me you'd say I'm Scandinavian, even though Finland isn't technically part of Scandinavia.)

EDIT: Sorry about the derail, by the way.

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:25:46 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#145964: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:31:13 PM

Hmm, I've seen some population genetics studies suggest that the Sami are autochthonous to Finland and any Asian ancestry and alleles are basal to the original European migrants. And that their loss in non-Sami Finns is more the result of intermarriage with foreign groups who no longer had those alleles than anything else. Also, that the Sami fought to be recognized by the government as "white" rather than "Asian" because of discrimination from social Darwinists who considered them foreigners in their own land.

However I mostly came across this information as a response to arguments that the cast of Frozen cast were whitewashed and that the Sami were later migrants from Mongolia, to which several people of Sami descent argued the above and that the controversy was a misrepresentation by Americans of their actual history.

Of course, as an actual Finn you'd probably have a better understanding of what's actually up than me.

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:37:38 PM by AlleyOop

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#145965: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:31:58 PM

Since we're shilling for voting practises in our areas for Best Of, figured I'd throw mine in.

Not sure if it's for the state at large, but here in Texas, we have voting machines. When you go in, you show them your ID (voter ID laws, yay!) in order to verify your name and address against a list of register voters in your area; after signing said sheet, you are given a passcode in order to access one of the electronic voting machines; once you've entered the passcode, you vote.

The actual process in voting on the machines is awkward though. You have a weird flat scroll wheel which you use to scroll all of the different things you are voting in and the options, hitting the "Cast Vote" button when you get to your choices. Once you've gotten to the last page of the list, you are given a review of your choices (or lack thereof), which you can either hit "Cast Vote" again to finish, or go back with the "Previous Page" and "Next Page" buttons.

Okay, the actual process isn't actually awkward, but I always feel awkward with that damned scroll wheel.


In other Texas election news, GOP officials in the state's largest counties are reporting a surge in volunteer poll watchers.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#145966: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:39:03 PM

Hmm, I've seen some population genetics studies suggest that the Sami are autochthonous to Finland and any Asian ancestry and alleles are basal to the original European migrants. And that their loss in non-Sami Finns is more the result of intermarriage with foreign groups who no longer had those alleles than anything else.

That's very interesting. Unfortunately it's off-topic for this thread, which I feel I must point out even though I'm the one who started it.

The broader point, anyway, is that the perception of someone's ethnicity isn't really even related, necessarily, to any facts at all. It's fairly common for someone who "looks like a Muslim" to be discriminated for it even if they're actually Hindu or Christian or whatever. It's basically the same thing: a person or institution wants to issue an ethnicity-based classification on someone, and they impose it on their first impression, rather than on any research or actual contact with the person they're trying to describe.

It's an almost entirely pointless exercise from beginning to finish. (I say "almost" because people who experience things based on their ethnicity have to carry that, and for that purpose it can be relevant to know someone's ethnicity - it shouldn't be, but it is.)

What was the point, again? Oh, yeah. I was saying that "Muslim-American" gets used the same way as "[ethnicity]-American", even though "Muslim" is not an ethnicity and no other religion is referred to like that - so it others Muslims and falsely equates their religion to their ethnicity, whatever it might be. Maybe I'm the only one who notices this - implying that there's no phenomenon to notice, to begin with. I don't know. Does it bother anyone else that you get "Muslim-American" as a demographic, but not "Christian-American" or "Confucian-American"?

EDIT: [nja]

EDIT:

Of course, as an actual Finn you'd probably have a better understanding of what's actually up than me.

Well, not necessarily. I know they're the indigenous population - or sort of "more" indigenous than the "main" population of Finland, who - according to the popular narrative, which I assume is based on some research - descend from later waves of immigrants, explaining the cultural and genetic differences. The Sami were, for a very long time, treated as basically foreigners because they weren't assimilated into mainstream Finnish culture - which, of course, was largely a weird mix of Swedish and local... Wait, I'm derailing again. And rambling about Finland. I'll stop now. Sorry.

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:44:30 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#145967: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:41:14 PM

[up]I've actually been having discussion like this in class on terrorism I'm taking and things of this nature have come up in regards to American Muslims.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#145968: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:42:47 PM

Re: that talk of Democratic national dominance, a possible split in the GOP.

This isn't a new phenomenon — the Federalists, Democratic-Republicans, Whigs, the old center-left GOP, and the 20th Century Democrats have all experienced splits, and it's natural, because the political environment no longer matches the party labels. As for Democratic dominance of the presidency, it's probably going to be a long while before the GOP starts taking the White House, if they ever do again. Their demographics are dying (literally and figuratively), their policies are too exclusionary, and their base is insane. That's not the recipe for political revival. Their control over the House will take decades to undo, but hopefully the experience of fending off Trump has inspired liberals to take politics more seriously. The Presidency is less sensitive to gerrymandering, though, and with Democrats having a natural electoral vote advantage, and the retreat of the GOP from traditionally red or purple states, it'll be a while before we have a GOP president.

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:44:33 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#145969: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:53:05 PM

Their control over the House will take decades to undo, but hopefully the experience of fending off Trump has inspired liberals to take politics more seriously.

At the very least, it's likely they'll take the House and the Senate this year, so maybe they can pass some federal guidelines for districting. Dunno how exactly that'd work, but then again, they'd have much bigger fish to fry.

New Survey coming this weekend!
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#145970: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:54:49 PM

but I suppose the argument for it is that at least there's no time and money wasted on registering people who don't intend to vote, anyway.

Note that it's common for campaigns to make an effort to register new voters. I actually volunteered with the Obama campaign registering voters in Florida in 2012. Ironically, when I moved to California, I registered to vote at a local booth for the Ro Khanna campaign. Then I registered again this year with local Sanders campaigners. (I don't have a car and it's too much hassle to go to the DMV).

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:57:31 PM by storyyeller

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#145971: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:55:07 PM

At the very least, it's likely they'll take the House and the Senate this year

I don't know which side you're suggesting will take both of those, but you're wrong, anyway - at least according to the polls. Right now it looks like the Democrats are very likely to take the Senate, with or possibly even without the tie-breaker you get in the form of the Vice President when you win the Presidential election.

The House is not up for election right now, if I'm not horribly mistaken - so it'll stay Republican.

Nope, horrible mistake on my part. Sorry.

edited 22nd Oct '16 8:56:46 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#145972: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:57:16 PM

The House is elected every two years to the Senate's six and the President's four. It's always up for election.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#145973: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:58:45 PM

The House will probably stay Republican because the Republicans draw the voting districts - this isn't true for the Senate.

chartoc Since: Apr, 2010
#145974: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:59:14 PM

@Best Of Considering that part of North Carlin voters ID laws was stuck down because it was clearly racist, I like to share my experience. I've been register since 08 but when the laws come in 2012 I had to get a state ID since I don't have a driver license. But because parts were stuck down when I to vote I didn't have to show ID. So I confirmed my information with the people and went to the machines. North Carolina's machines are touch screen just touch to vote for your candidates. At the end of it you review your results and press cast ballot. It is pretty simple. I am glad for early voting.

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#145975: Oct 22nd 2016 at 8:59:26 PM

However, the House is gerrymandered and extremely partisan, which makes it unlikely to change in practice. I saw one estimate that the Democrats would have to win by about 6% on average in order to put the House in play.

edited 22nd Oct '16 9:00:21 PM by storyyeller

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play

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